To not want SD coming on these holidays anymore?

[QueenCarmel]

SD is 13. DH and I have been together since she was 5, and we have DD5 and 3. We used to have SD three nights a week but since she started secondary, she’s stopped coming in the week and now rarely at weekends either. We are stricter than her mum on things like homework (she’s behind and it’s rarely done), bedtimes and screen time so she prefers to be at her mum’s house. When she’s here, it’s always under duress and she’s not pleasant to be around. Unfortunately, we have no contact order and have been advised that we are unlikely to get increased time as she’s old enough to decide.

We haven’t seen her since the end of May and she’s ignoring DH’s calls and texts (he has been inviting her here and also to things like the cinema or for a meal with just him). He has just received an email from her mum saying:

”X doesn’t want to come to your house anymore so stop messaging her about it. It’s harassment. She will see you on Saturday if you take her to (nearby city) as she needs new clothes and trainers. She’ll still come on the holidays too.”

The holidays are New York for my sister’s wedding in November and we have been planning a big Caribbean break for next year. I don’t think it’s fair for her to check out of our family entirely except for very expensive holidays.

no way would I take her to the wedding. She clearly doesn’t want to see you or be part of the family. You can’t have it both ways.

the Mother is a piece of work. Telling you that you can only see her if you buy her stuff and pay for holidays.

just be careful, couple of years she will be out of control and her mum will boot her out and expect you to take her in.

”X doesn’t want to come to your house anymore so stop messaging her about it. It’s harassment. She will see you on Saturday if you take her to (nearby city) as she needs new clothes and trainers. She’ll still come on the holidays too.”

This might be SD/her mum's stance but that doesn't make it the final word. It's okay for your DH to say that's not acceptable to him and he wants to talk about how to have more regular contact beyond shopping trips and holidays. Of course the daughter has a say in it but that's different to her laying the law down and you all have to react in fear. Your DH can talk about it with her on the shopping trip if she's in sweet mode then. It's not harassment and don't join them in escalating things to extreme language like that. Be calm and reasonable as possible and keep negotiating, and if she threatens not to even do the holidays, well, that's one problem solved. I hope they can be more rational though and I do understand your reticence around the wedding, you're not under an obligation to take her if she literally won't see you at any other time before.

I don't have step children but in this house the rule is you cannot give the fuck off V sign with one hand and put the other hand out for money/lifts/favours.

We teach people how to treat us, that means if you are shitty you might not get to go on holiday. There are often threads on here about holidays and not wanting to take a teen and they are not step children teens but their own shitty teen.

I would take her shopping with a fixed budget but not on holiday especially if you believe, and rightly so, that she could fuck it all up. This isn't just a holiday, it is someone's wedding.

I do fear that her mum will end up dumping an out-of-control older teen SD on us. Her mum says yes to keep the peace and SD does largely what she wants. At this rate she’s going to crash out of GCSEs and she has no ambition career-wise.

Of course we will always welcome her, but it’s going to be far, far harder to help her when she’s 16+ than if we were able to now. Harder on everyone.

@QueenCarmel I've only read your post so this may have been suggested already.
I'd not take her to your sisters wedding and would make her stay with her mum in the uk.
I'd also have her dad talk to her about it and explain that due to her previous behaviour she won't be coming to the wedding making sure that she understands that its non-negotiable. If she would like to go on the family holiday she can, however 1st she needs to prove that her behaviour has improved and needs to act like a member of the family by coming atleast once per month.
If she chooses not to engage in family life with her dad then she cant come on the family trip.
13 is a hard age whether they're your own or step children (had both) but it's an age where she's old enough to understand that she can't refuse to be part of normal day to day family life and then still get all the perks of that family.
It's a hard lesson to learn and there will be massive push back especially from the mum but in the long run it will do her a world of good as a person.
Oh and before anyone asks i see more of my dsc than they do their mum even though their dad died more than a decade ago.

If I were her dad, I’d be doing everything in my power to have her removed from her current home situation and move her in with me permanently.

Where is your DH in all this? He is equally responsible for her future and ambitions, it’s not all on the mother.

DH has agreed to the shopping trip and will speak to her about establishing regular contact. We had a bit of an argument about it last night. He would be happy with monthly shopping trips with him to count as regular enough contact to go on the trips and I don’t.

DH already pays well over the amount CMS says for her being with her mum full-time, and always has, even when we had her close to 50/50. These shopping trips tend to cost £250-300 a go once parking and lunch is included. Like others have said, I don’t think she should be allowed to just check in for shopping trips and holidays yet see her sisters twice a year because it’s raising her to be grabby and not part of the family.

Unfortunately we left it as if that’s what’s happening, he’s not welcome to the wedding either and DDs and I will go separately. If he wants to take SD on a very expensive NYC shopping and sightseeing trip but not come to my sister’s wedding I’m not sure where that leaves our marriage. The Caribbean trip is off for now.

He’s been in regular contact with the safeguarding team at her school. He’s sought legal advice and been told he won’t get custody unless SD wants it or something really bad happens.

Has the Caribbean been booked yet?

Has the Caribbean been booked yet?

Has the Caribbean been booked yet?

No it hasn’t, it was supposed to be next year for DH’s milestone birthday.

We also haven’t booked NY because we haven’t known what’s happening with SD but it needs to be booked imminently.

Kids that age do need to start realising it's not a one way street where they get to demand whatever they want and have the adults dancing to their tune. Honestly, if you don't put your foot down and just bring her to holidays regardless of her behaviour, she'll grow up to be someone who you really don't want to be around.

This.

And a previous poster warned against pre-emptively not inviting her on holidays, but unfortunately arrangements need to be made and budgets sorted out, so you need to know, a good way in advance, who is coming not.

Ah, I’m really sorry OP, I’m sure this isn’t the conversation you wanted to have with him.

When you say he isn’t welcome at the wedding, have you told him not to come to the wedding? Does he still intend on bringing SD to New York during that time?

How awful for you OP, I’m so sorry.
Your husband sounds like he has no backbone of boundaries when it comes to SD, and will pander to her poor behaviour. A shopping budget of 200-300 per month is also ridiculous.

Book for yourself and your children. Forget about SD. Not your circus not your monkeys. You don’t have any parental responsibility over her.

I hope you have a great family wedding in NY.

I’ve told him that SD isn’t welcome at my sister’s wedding if she hasn’t made any effort to see me or DD for six months and we haven’t seen her behaviour improve. So if he brings her to NY anyway, he would need to miss the wedding to look after her. If he chooses that, he might as well take her on a separate trip because it’s pointless us going together. I sympathise with his position but at the same time, my sister’s wedding isn’t the time to be prioritising SD’s shopping opportunities over the rest of his family.

Oh jeeze. This is only going to get worse isn't it? He's capitulated entirely. He must think very little of himself if he's prepared to debase himself in this way. To be prepared to be nothing more to her than a wallet.

She is already a nightmare and this is going to make her worse. Yes, teenagers tend to be selfish, but this a whole different level.

I agree that she will be out of control very soon, and that it's likely that mum will hold her hands up and pass her on to you both.

I'm so sorry, but well done for refusing to take her to your sister's wedding.

Yes, the party incident and refusing to come home at 3am (at 13???!!) is a massive issue and points to more of the same.

Her mum would be better off focusing on this and some civil co-parenting instead of teaching her daughter a 'pay per view' attitude.

He is acknowledging to dsd she can be bought.... Agreeing to shopping trips.
She won't respect him any more than she does now. Probably less.
Imo agree to separate holidays for now. Book for you and your dd's... He can sort dsd and his own trip out. And I hope his frivolous spending on his dd is from his personal spending...

Honestly, if he chooses to take SD on the NY trip when she hasn’t seen any of your for 6m and then miss your sisters wedding to take her shopping… I can see why you’d be questioning the marriage.

Has he said what his plans are now around the NY trip? Is he going to talk to her about engaging more with family before the trip?

How did he react to being told he wouldn’t be welcome at the wedding either?

When I did see ds for a year he got nothing.. Barely any texts except happy birthday /Christmas /Easter.. He was The Big Man living his own life. I showed I was respectful of his decision.. Obviously I didn't agree with it! He saw The Error Of His Ways on his own. He had to live his chosen path before he could see what/who he was missing. He had younger half siblings here.. Chasing dsd will backfire... Ime

He's sad. I’m sad too. This is not how we expected or wanted things to end up with SD and even if she comes back around later, it’ll always be sad that she has missed this important event for our family.

DH is suggesting he’ll come to the wedding and will take SD to NY separately. I understand why, he doesn’t want to disappoint her, but he’s basically rewarding her bad behaviour with an expensive personalised trip he can’t really afford and I don’t respect it to be honest.

I’ve agreed to review in a month and book then… He’s going to cover any increase of costs.

So she then doesn’t have to do the boring Not-About-Her event or spend time with her young siblings, but she does get a full weekend of dedicated “Just SD” time to shop and have all time/money focused on her wants and desires?

Yes, I would have a strong issue with this as well. She either goes on the family trip or she doesn’t go. This is not a solution, it’s pandering.

Well it sounds like you've discussed it as much as you can at this point, and yes, it is sad, I’m sorry OP. I can understand his view, I absolutely don’t agree with it, but it’s obviously coming from a place of fear, fear of his relationship with SD dwindling. He’s really set her up to be a spoilt brat and an ungrateful, manipulative adult. It must be hard to watch. Id find it very difficult to respect a parent like this.

Im assuming from this post that you have separate finances? I’d be making it very clear that you will not be contributing a penny to these monthly shopping trips or their NY trip, and that you expect his spending his money on these things not to affect what you do/can afford as a family.

What do you think her reaction will be to being told she’s not coming to your sister’s wedding with the rest of the family? Any chance that might be a lightbulb moment for her? Or will she just be happy she’s going to NY shopping with her father?

This is an interesting update @QueenCarmel . If she were a joint child who was going to ruin a family wedding, the answer would not be for one parent to take the siblings to the wedding, and the other parent to take her on a NYC shopping spree that is out of budget. Realistically, she would be left behind with grandparents/family members from the other side of the family.