To not want SD coming on these holidays anymore?

[QueenCarmel]

SD is 13. DH and I have been together since she was 5, and we have DD5 and 3. We used to have SD three nights a week but since she started secondary, she’s stopped coming in the week and now rarely at weekends either. We are stricter than her mum on things like homework (she’s behind and it’s rarely done), bedtimes and screen time so she prefers to be at her mum’s house. When she’s here, it’s always under duress and she’s not pleasant to be around. Unfortunately, we have no contact order and have been advised that we are unlikely to get increased time as she’s old enough to decide.

We haven’t seen her since the end of May and she’s ignoring DH’s calls and texts (he has been inviting her here and also to things like the cinema or for a meal with just him). He has just received an email from her mum saying:

”X doesn’t want to come to your house anymore so stop messaging her about it. It’s harassment. She will see you on Saturday if you take her to (nearby city) as she needs new clothes and trainers. She’ll still come on the holidays too.”

The holidays are New York for my sister’s wedding in November and we have been planning a big Caribbean break for next year. I don’t think it’s fair for her to check out of our family entirely except for very expensive holidays.

You say that you want to see your SD and for her to be a part of the family, but in nearly every other comment you write about her, you describe her horribly and with judgement, as if she were a thirty-year-old woman making bad choices and not a young teen from a broken family trying to fit in.

What 13-year-old kid doesn't want her dad to buy her things? What 13-year-old kid wouldn't want to go on a vacation to NYC? You are wanting her to show adult-level gratitude and maturity in her behavior to you, when she is not an adult, but a kid, and all kids are prone to a bit of selfishness.

If you exclude her for "predicted bad behavior" or a lack of gratitude, she will not see it that way, and you won't have much of a leg to stand on when you try to explain, "well, we didn't want to spend the extra money on you coming along since you are moody and prone to going off on your own."

That's the "Minority Report" form of exclusion, if you have seen the Tom Cruise movie.

She will assume your real reason is that you don't want her around and that you draw the line at "clothes" as far as how much you will spend on her and having her around.

Clearly the relationship has broken down, whether the fault lies with yourselves or dsd mum the fact remains there’s a kid who needs a dad in her life. If she wants to do day trips with him and holidays do it, keep the relationship open on your side it will mean a lot to her when she’s a bit older.

I think the mum is rude and I'd ignore her. He's either harassing her by contacting her or he isn't. I think he needs to be clear that he's not an ATM and that he also actually has feelings.

I wouldn't take her to the wedding if you can't trust her not to spoil it. That's wouldn't be fair on your sister. However, I think the holiday is a double-edged sword. If you don't take her you've excluded her from a family holiday. If you take her she could ruin it for everyone.

I think her and her dad would benigit from a trip together just the two of them maybe somewhere in Europe. It might help to build the relationship.

You may not want her to come and that's fair enough. But she's part of your family as much as your DCs, so to exclude her is very unfair and isn't going to help the rift.

You could see the holidays as good ways to build bridges.

I'd be devastated if teen DC didn't want to spend any time with me, and would be doing all I could do fix it, not making them feel even less wanted.

Harassment. Pah. I'd not want her on the trips either. Her dad can take her shopping and have a simple line or two ready to say to her. Like I'm sad you don't want to be around x, y and z these days but we won't try to force you at your age. The littles miss you a lot, do you think you'd cope if they sent you some paintings now and then? And the trips won't work when you're not feeling sociable. Maybe next time. I'll still buy you a top from Blah Store while we're over there though. Anyway, let's get you some shoes and a dress today. Lunch now or shops first? Let her back away from the contact without cutting her off, but don't let her ruin a wedding or other big trip!

I don't see why she needs to be included in the holiday for your sister's wedding. That's something personal to you and your side of the family, which isn't anything to do with her. The Caribbean holiday is a different matter.

With respect, you clearly have no idea what it’s like to raise and love a child you don’t live with or have any authority over.

If she was here regularly and part of our family, of course we wouldn’t exclude her. But if we do what she wants, I and DDs won’t have even seen her for six months.

I’m generally on the side of the children in these situations but I actually feel very different here. If she has opted out of family life, doesn’t want to see you or your children, then cancel her New York trip. This is your sister’s wedding and she obviously doesn’t want to be around you and your children so why would you take her? I would feel different if it was your DHs sister.

Hold fire on the Caribbean trip, it’s next year, and maybe cancelling the New York trip will focus things in her mind a little and she’ll mature a bit.

DH had this with his daughter and they ended up being estranged for 14 years, and things are still not really recovered. However (and only kids who live across 2 houses can vote with their feet like this) he still has no regrets about asking her to do her homework. If he’d given in on that, what would have been next?

do the shopping trip for the trainers but ask DH to not go overboard on expenditure . The last thing you want is for him to be viewed as a wallet alone . Going forward suggest that DH just meets her for meals or cake and a drink near her own area to keep contact going but not to take up too much of her teenage time . Make sure he’s available to her to chat and message as needed which should help preserve the relationship . See how it goes . In situations such as these it’s a long game . Hopefully if he keeps contact things will come right in the end . That probably won’t mend the sibling relationship. We had similar for a while - relationships are now pretty good though youngest DS2 still a teen has never forgiven DSD for abandoning him .

plan a UK short break and include her in that - hold fire on any big holidays out of the UK for now.

I would not have a relationship on those terms, it’s unhealthy and unfair for everyone, and it won’t do DSD any favours in the long term to dictate terms like these to the people around her.

He’s either ‘harassing’ her and she doesn’t want to have a relationship with him, or he isn’t and she wants to be a part of stuff. But there is absolutely no way that I would be sharing a family holiday with a member of the family that doesn’t regard anyone else as such unless it’s for very specific events. You and your DC are humans with feelings just like her, and you shouldn’t have core memories potentially ruined on the whims of others.

The wedding is a wedding first and a holiday second. I think it’s fair to say that given her recent behaviour and your role in the wedding you aren’t taking her. You can’t guarantee she won’t sneak off (and in New York? We’ve all seen home alone 2) or get into mischief or cause drama and it quite frankly isn’t her day or yours. I think this is a very reasonable test to say she might have to sit this one out given the distance she is implementing between you and the fact she doesn’t listen to or respect you as parents.

You can broach the second holiday after. Don’t tell her she’s in or out. Tell her you want to include her but she seems to be excluding herself entirely.

It sounds like her mum is trying dictate things, what does DS actually want?. Sure do the shopping trip with a budget but it would be a bit odd for everyone for her to go to New York when she’s not been part of the family all year.

I would kindly disagree. A happy, blended family, which is the best possible outcome, works when both parents accept a child from another marriage as a part of the overall family. If this SD is excluded from her step mother's sister's wedding, then @QueenCarmel is reinforcing the point that the SD is a "half-member" of the blended family, and not at full membership, like the other children, the SD and her father.

The best course of action for this poster, but I fear that she will not do this, is to treat the SD like she does her own biological children, in every sense, projecting how her own biological children may be moody in their teens in coming years, and to have the maturity as a parent to not judge harshly.

Her own biological children have the advantage of one household, two parents, while her own SD must navigate three parents, two households, etc. Empathy is the key here.

I am seeing so many posters on here that are raking this 13-year-old child over the coals and so willing to exclude her, oftentimes for monetary reasons only.

What "drama" is expected out of this teen that could ruin a wedding, and what type of message is this sending to the teen? With the continued attitude of the poster and her low expectations, I do think there is a real danger of self-fulfilling prophecy here. Children pick up on these things. I can see just in her writing how much the poster really does not like her own SD.

This. If she doesn't want to see you all then she doesn't go on shopping trips or holidays. It's ridiculous to pander to that. I can't believe the amount of posts saying to be supportive blah blah blah, she's being a princess. Either she wants to be a part of your family for everything or its nothing..

The littles miss you a lot, do you think you'd cope if they sent you some paintings now and then?

Cope???? Who wouldn’t cope if a small child sent you.a painting? It’s just ridiculous pandering

Sneaking out at night, sneaking alcohol, smoking, generally being rude.

I was far from a perfect teenager so I fully understand why she wants to be somewhere without boundaries. But it’s really upsetting to see her failing at school and putting herself in danger.

Don’t do this - in our experience she is highly unlikely to even receive them - my DS made loads of cards etc - not sure they weren’t disappeared …. One day I will ask

I don’t dislike her at all. I love her and I want the best for her. I don’t like her behaviour.

She doesn’t know my sister very well and has met her fiancé once, during a family meal last Christmas where she had to be taken home early because she wouldn’t put her phone away and then screamed at DH. Sister is happy for her to come and we had previously planned to do sightseeing and shopping as well. But I don’t trust her to behave during the wedding and frankly I’ll be furious with her if she makes it about her and not my sister.

I agree with this.

i have a 12 year old daughter. I am the stricter parent, have rules, make her have her 5 a day etc and she still would rather be here than with her dad for various reasons.

I agree with asking DSD why she doesn’t want to go rather than presume. You only know what goes on at mums from what you are being told by a child.

SM here and we went through a similar situation at that age.

She will want to spend time with friends and frankly the house that best enables that (and treats) will win out.

In your situation I’d tell your DH to go shopping but give her a monthly clothes budget ie don’t buy all she wants on one trip. More trips (more time with dad) to spend her monthly clothing allowance and this isn’t just bribery, it’s also teaching budgeting and delayed gratification.

I’d also offer (if you have space) the opportunity for sleepovers with her friends. This worked well for us in keeping the door open as it were. Though it didn’t mean we actually spent lots of time with her the fact her friends thought we were really nice and would get pizzas and arrange for them to hang locally to us reflected back on her perceptions of us.

The holidays are more tricky. We had - I’m only going if we go to xyz place. We were clear that family holidays had to be for all the family and came back with options to discuss and made clear that they who pay get the final say.

In your case given the level of current engagement I’d not take her to NYC. I’d say the arrangements have already been made and since you have not visited in 3 months that signalled you did not want be involved in family events (and class this as an event not a holiday).

But I’d also say, we are still organising the family Caribbean holiday, so if you want to come and be involved in the planning for that let us know when you want to come round and talk about it.

I think you need to strike a balance between letting her dictate everything and not giving a reason for her to flounce off. It’s not easy, but your DH needs to realise that he needs to be fair, but not a pushover.

It’s a tricky age and it’s worth keeping that in mind.

Teenagers are/can be self centred dickheads. I currently have two 😁. And one of them would definitely and has previously ruined family occasions with mardiness and drama. But family I wouldn’t leave her behind for family wedding/holiday. Even though I co- parent and technically she could.

if you leave her behind you are reinforcing that she isn’t welcome and not part of the new family. Remember part of this is likely her pushing boundaries to see what happened.

Then all the more reason to be supportive, provide guidance and, at all costs, avoid reinforcing her negative behavior by validating her worst fears in excluding her.

I am not advocating for throwing discipline out the window, but I will tell you that if you start "pre-emptively" excluding her from family events and vacations, things will only get worse.

There is nothing wrong with setting expectations, and if she is sneaking out at your home and drinking, smoking, etc. then you can set the expectation that this must stop now or you will not feel comfortable taking her to another country where she could behave similarly. This is the key, however, setting expectations and giving her time and the opportunity to meet them.

You have a real chance here to be a parent to a confused teen that feels like she probably doesn't belong, and is acting out for attention, the attention of parents, as a conscious or sub-conscious validation that she is loved. What choices you and your husband make now will affect how she turns out.

If you only use "predicted bad behavior," to exclude her, and blow the opportunity to combine empathy, care, and attention, with discipline, you will have worse problems in the future, and most certainly these could serve as a model for behavior for your own future biological teens.

We have. There was an incident during the Easter holidays where she wanted to go to a much older teen’s party, DH said no but she could have a friend to stay, they snuck out to go to the party having stolen our alcohol. DH realised at about 3am, went immediately to get her, and basically extracted her. There was a lot of drinking, drugs and adults. He embarrassed her basically (she made a scene refusing to leave) and she hasn’t forgiven him. She went back to her mum’s the next day and contact has been sporadic ever since.

She was 12 at the time.

If she lived with us we could have enforced boundaries, grounded her, encouraged other friends and hobbies. If she won’t see us, we can’t.

I wouldn’t take her to the wedding, it’s not your event and it would be extremely unfair if your sister’s day was ruined. I would book a U.K. holiday this year, invite her to that and decide about the foreign holiday next year nearer the time.