Advice needed on a 5 year old

[emg1988]

Hi, I've just joined here and I'm looking for a bit of advice please. Apologies if this has been mentioned in any previous posts, I’ve had a look but there are so many I couldn’t find the answers to help me.

I've been with my partner since September 2020 and have been living with him since November due to the pandemic and numerous lockdowns we've had. He has two daughters: the youngest is 3 and the oldest is 5. We have the girls from Wednesday evening to Sat night/Sun morn at the moment, but this schedule changes every now and again, so the days aren’t always the same. I love both of them, but the 5-year-old often refers to me as her best friend but doesn't always listen to what I say, especially when I ask her to do something. It’s like she doesn’t see me as an adult, especially when my partner is not around. There have been occasions where he has gone out to run an errand or gone to play golf and I’m looking after the girls and have had to ask the 5-year-old to do something, but she doesn’t listen to me or she answers me back rudely or cheekily. I’ve had conversations with my partner, who is very supportive, and has tried to help but some days are obviously different to others and she mostly plays up when he is not around. Although there have been a few times where I’ve asked her to do something, and she has answered back in a rude or cheeky way and my partner has heard and told her off, but it still doesn’t seem to register with her.

I don’t know what has caused this, whether she’s just taking advantage because I’m not her mum or something, but it’s difficult because I now live with my partner permanently so I’m always around them.

When I first met the girls, she was trying her luck with everything because I was a new person to her, but it still feels like she is like this sometimes so it’s really hard to deal with, without getting so frustrated. It can also be stressful, emotional, and sometimes affects my anxiety.

Any advice from anyone who has been in this situation or is currently in a similar situation would be most helpful and greatly appreciated. Happy to answer any further questions, just didn't want to put too much in here! TIA

Remember that people are at their wits end before they post here - it's not exactly inviting, is it? So if their description of the DSC is somewhat raw and unpalatable to you - remember they are probably supporting the household financially, doing the wifework AND the childcare - and getting a load of aggro from the whole family. Exhausted, demoralised people don't have the energy to mince words.

@SpaceshiptoMars

Remember that people are at their wits end before they post here - it's not exactly inviting, is it? So if their description of the DSC is somewhat raw and unpalatable to you - remember they are probably supporting the household financially, doing the wifework AND the childcare - and getting a load of aggro from the whole family. Exhausted, demoralised people don't have the energy to mince words.

Yes which is why I just said my anger is mostly directed towards the dads who let the situation become like that. I’ve felt so bad for some of the step mums I’ve read about on here, the amount of shit they’ve had to put up with is awful.

*On this thread you have a five-year-old described as 'taking advantage'. That's quite mild compared to others I've seen, where tiny children are described as 'manipulative', 'attention-seeking', 'narcissistic', etc. etc.

You don't have to be a step-parent or an 'ex' to think that adults speaking about children in such a nasty, bitchy, cruel, jealous, vicious, vindictive way is wrong.*

I have used some of those terms to describe DSS and DS. The last couple of years really tough on our whole family including DSS. 2 weeks after we found out we were pregnant MIL got diagnosed with terminal heart failure over the following year my DP acted as her career alongside the NHS careers. Ds was born and DSS struggled. We empathise prioritising time with him. One example of many is I was out of hospital a week trying sitting at the table with a newborn trying to figure out how to feed him while playing monopoly because DSS cried at the prospect of only playing with dad.
DSS had realised that crying got him his way. I also have many examples prior to the birth of DS. His behaviour was excused as he was having a tough time at mums and being from a split home is tough. Yes those things are true but since we reestablished boundaries and made it clear that crying as a way to manipulate adults into doing what he wanted was not acceptable he is so much happier in himself.

Compassion has to be balanced with boundaries which is what I see as incredibly important in both homes. Using these terms (when I was at breaking point) to describe the behaviour of DSS allowed us to adress them. Excusing poor behaviour in kids and making excuses doesnt help the child. All kids need boundaries.
Oh and the poster who says that a stepmom just wants the kids to disappear that is bollocks. I wish DSS lived with us full time I have fully supported DP when he talked to solicitors to get full custody. I love him to bits and worry myself sick about him at times but hes not my son so I'm not allowed to take him and run away when I fear hes in danger. Instead he has to be dropped back to his mothers house where his stepfather could be described at best as authoritarian and at worse outright abusive.

Sometimes children just are being manipulative or attention seeking. That is not unusual. And it's a comment on their behaviour. Whatever the reason for that behaviour, they are being manipulative or attention seeking and its less than ideal for all involved.

If a parent comments that their 5 year old daughter is being manipulative, people will give them advice to help them parent the child to more desirable behaviours. Same with questions about attention seeking behaviour.

But a stepparent who asks the same question is vile and cruel and nasty. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@FishyFriday

Sometimes children just are being manipulative or attention seeking. That is not unusual. And it's a comment on their behaviour. Whatever the reason for that behaviour, they are being manipulative or attention seeking and its less than ideal for all involved.

If a parent comments that their 5 year old daughter is being manipulative, people will give them advice to help them parent the child to more desirable behaviours. Same with questions about attention seeking behaviour.

But a stepparent who asks the same question is vile and cruel and nasty. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Exactly. Being strategic and yes, manipulative, are skills like any other. When do people think people learn them if not in childhood? It's a perfectly normal stage of development and it is perfectly normal to discuss it. Is it really any wonder it comes across like some of us always agree with step parents, when statements like that are described as "vile, cruel, vindictive and bitchy", but only when they come from us?

@FishyFriday

Sometimes children just are being manipulative or attention seeking. That is not unusual. And it's a comment on their behaviour. Whatever the reason for that behaviour, they are being manipulative or attention seeking and its less than ideal for all involved.

If a parent comments that their 5 year old daughter is being manipulative, people will give them advice to help them parent the child to more desirable behaviours. Same with questions about attention seeking behaviour.

But a stepparent who asks the same question is vile and cruel and nasty. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don’t agree, I don’t think it’s ok for parents to describe their own very young children in those kinds of terms either - ‘manipulative’ ‘taking advantage’. Parent/step parent is irrelevant, to me anyway.

I don’t agree, I don’t think it’s ok for parents to describe their own very young children in those kinds of terms either - ‘manipulative’ ‘taking advantage’. Parent/step parent is irrelevant, to me anyway.

You don't think it's acceptable for parents to discuss the phenomena of their children trying their luck with different people?

Would you wade into a parenting thread and start telling people off for describing their three year old's behaviour as attention seeking and looking for suggestions on how to improve things?

Or is it just easier to do that on stepparent threads, where people will intrinsically agree that it's a 'nasty' way to describe a child?

@aSofaNearYou

I don’t agree, I don’t think it’s ok for parents to describe their own very young children in those kinds of terms either - ‘manipulative’ ‘taking advantage’. Parent/step parent is irrelevant, to me anyway.

You don't think it's acceptable for parents to discuss the phenomena of their children trying their luck with different people?

I don’t know, guess it depends on the context, if it was said as a first response to a behaviour instead of looking at other explanations, yeah I’d think it wasn’t very nice. But I’m over sensitive maybe (?)

@FishyFriday

Would you wade into a parenting thread and start telling people off for describing their three year old's behaviour as attention seeking and looking for suggestions on how to improve things?

Or is it just easier to do that on stepparent threads, where people will intrinsically agree that it's a 'nasty' way to describe a child?

I don’t agree with just telling people off, it sounds so authoritative and as though I’ve got any right to do that, I’ve already said being like that to people doesn’t help a situation.

But yes I would, and I don’t think of it as ‘wading in’, more like just commenting on a public thread.

Oh I meant to say, I do think it’s different in some situations though, like this one, where that little girl has probably had an awful lot to cope with, being forced to be looked after by someone she doesn’t know very well. It’s more likely in this situation that she’s acting out of fear and distress, rather than being calculated and needing to be disciplined. So I think that should be taken into account.

In fact after reading the first post again, I’m even more pissed off towards the dad than I was before!

Because the thing about manipulative or attention seeking behaviour is, if you don't recognise it as such and tackle it accordingly, very often you are encouraging and rewarding it in ways that just are not good for the child.

Take @Aimee1987's example. You don't want the child to learn that they can use tears to force people to do what they want. You want to help them to find better ways of engaging with people. It is 'manipulative' but that doesn't mean you think the child is evil or horrible. Just that they are currently behaving in manipulative ways and it's probably best if it doesn't continue.

Because even young children can be manipulative. Humans can be. Our job as adults is not to encourage it. The thing about stepfamily dynamics though is that all sorts of things often promote manipulative behaviour. My stepdaughter used to cry and claim she 'missed mammy' any time her father said anything she didn't like (not even telling her off; things like saying no to sweets). She was trying to manipulate him. The thing is, it often worked (because it triggered his Disney dad tendencies and fear that she'll choose her mum over him). So it got worse. And was encouraged by her mother, who wants her children to see her as the more important parent (for her own sense of identity).

She's a bit older now, so she expresses it in a whole range of different ways. For example, doing something she shouldn't and then producing a gushing card about his much she loves and misses her father, and/or how she hopes he has lots of lovely surprises to share with her. It's not good because she's learning that an empty grand gesture will deflect from poor behaviour. Let's face it, tugging on your father's divorced dad guilt does not make it ok to hit your brother. But she knows she can manipulate the situation - and she know she can draw her mother into it too.

It would be better for her if her parents looked at it and thought: she's just learning to be manipulative here. We are teaching her to be by the way we act and respond. Let's discourage that and refocus her to better ways of interacting with people and dealing with situations. Instead the whole dynamic just encourages her and she's getting stuck in problematic patterns that build over time. That's not her fault really (it's her parents' entirely). Nor is it a some sort of intrinsic character failing. But it is a reasonable and accurate description of what's happening.

Just to be clear, my stepdaughter produces her gushing card and her father then doesn't make her apologise to her brother, who she hit. He's too busy telling her what a lovely girl she is and displaying it prominently. And then feeling obliged to endure that he does have lovely surprises for her, so he books days out and buys presents.

It would be much better for her if she were told that hitting is unacceptable and asked to apologise to her brother (and probably given some time out to reflect on why she should be nice to her brother). Instead she learns that she can avoid consequences and get things she wants.

My FIL has earned DH that he's storing up issues that are going to bite him badly when she's a teenager. But he is scared of her feeling any negative feelings (even if it's just experiencing guilt and remorse for her own actions) and he knows her mother will encourage it (and phone him saying she doesn't want to come because she 'can't confide in him').

@fishyfriday that sounds tough. I completly agree with you that the behaviour will amplify as she gets older. I really hope your DP sees the error in his ways and addresses them.

I don’t know, guess it depends on the context, if it was said as a first response to a behaviour instead of looking at other explanations, yeah I’d think it wasn’t very nice. But I’m over sensitive maybe (?)

I think it is a bit over sensitive, yes, though you're far from the only one.

"Trying their luck" as they learn that certain behaviours lead to certain outcomes, and that they can get different results by acting a certain way around different people or withholding certain information, is perfectly common and natural. Most children surely do it. "Manipulative" is just a term to describe the process of trying to control things so they go in your favour, which in many contexts is a positive thing.

Yes, there is a layer of meaning behind describing someone as "manipulative", point blank. It can be taken to mean this is their defining characteristic and something they take too far, especially an adult who would be expected to have grown out of that trait. But saying someone, especially a child, is pushing their luck, or trying to take advantage, or even "can be" a bit manipulative, does not have that implied insult behind it. Likewise assuming all behaviour is manipulative is unkind, but I don't really think many people do that, it's certainly not what the OP on this thread did. Most children learn to manipulate situations and will do so on some occasions as they grow. It's a part of life.

[quote Aimee1987]@fishyfriday that sounds tough. I completly agree with you that the behaviour will amplify as she gets older. I really hope your DP sees the error in his ways and addresses them.[/quote]
Sadly, I don't think he will. He almost wants to be taken in by it, because it's more emotionally comfortable for him than having to parent problematic behaviour (or even acknowledge problematic behaviour).

I'm pretty certain she keeps a supply of pre-made cards hidden in her room somewhere. She can produce one in seconds when it suits her purposes.

I hope, for her sake as much as anything else, that her father decides to face up to the need to parent his children. But I'm not sure he will.

Eeerm, no, the difference is you jumping to conclusions. The vast majority of people that mention children "taking advantage" on here are not saying it as an insult and recognise this is something many children do to varying extents that just needs managing
Yet if there was almost on AIBU, from an ex saying that the partner of her ex is manipulative and taking advantage of her partner, there would be responses from SMs to say that it wasn't fair, that's she probably has a good reason to feel this way, that's it's probably not her fault.

But when it's a SC, it's just recognising who they are. I agree that this is what upsets me in these threads. Step children who display behaviours that are common to children for various reasons, who are deemed requiring understanding and support, yet deemed difficult children, usually due to the ex, whose behaviour gets in the way of the SM being able to enjoy a nice family life with her partner and her children.

Kids are not perfect. Many kids are demanding, attention seeking, rude at times, manipulative, disobedient etc... Parents accept it a lot if it and j deed, most kids grow out if their poor behaviour once they come to adulthood. SCs though are often expected to be problem free kids, who should adjust, be grateful, happy with it all, always polite, etc...

Some kids are just like that, some are not but those who are not shouldn't be less well cared for even if they are not as pleasant.

@FishyFriday

Because the thing about manipulative or attention seeking behaviour is, if you don't recognise it as such and tackle it accordingly, very often you are encouraging and rewarding it in ways that just are not good for the child.

Take @Aimee1987's example. You don't want the child to learn that they can use tears to force people to do what they want. You want to help them to find better ways of engaging with people. It is 'manipulative' but that doesn't mean you think the child is evil or horrible. Just that they are currently behaving in manipulative ways and it's probably best if it doesn't continue.

Because even young children can be manipulative. Humans can be. Our job as adults is not to encourage it. The thing about stepfamily dynamics though is that all sorts of things often promote manipulative behaviour. My stepdaughter used to cry and claim she 'missed mammy' any time her father said anything she didn't like (not even telling her off; things like saying no to sweets). She was trying to manipulate him. The thing is, it often worked (because it triggered his Disney dad tendencies and fear that she'll choose her mum over him). So it got worse. And was encouraged by her mother, who wants her children to see her as the more important parent (for her own sense of identity).

She's a bit older now, so she expresses it in a whole range of different ways. For example, doing something she shouldn't and then producing a gushing card about his much she loves and misses her father, and/or how she hopes he has lots of lovely surprises to share with her. It's not good because she's learning that an empty grand gesture will deflect from poor behaviour. Let's face it, tugging on your father's divorced dad guilt does not make it ok to hit your brother. But she knows she can manipulate the situation - and she know she can draw her mother into it too.

It would be better for her if her parents looked at it and thought: she's just learning to be manipulative here. We are teaching her to be by the way we act and respond. Let's discourage that and refocus her to better ways of interacting with people and dealing with situations. Instead the whole dynamic just encourages her and she's getting stuck in problematic patterns that build over time. That's not her fault really (it's her parents' entirely). Nor is it a some sort of intrinsic character failing. But it is a reasonable and accurate description of what's happening.

@FishyFriday in your situation I’d agree, it’s much better for the girl to be acknowledged for her behaviours and will be helped in the long run. I get that, I’m totally fine with calling it as you see it and naming specific behaviours people (children) do.

And I have to say that does sound really difficult for all of you.

However, I feel like it’s different in this situation because dealing with this 5 year old child’s manipulative and attention seeking behaviour would involve looking a the root cause of it, which may be that dad has moved on way too fast aid brought a relative stranger into his kids lives. You can say that these traits need knocking on the head or dealing with, but it’s like putting a plaster on them and not dealing with the wound underneath, and I think that’s what a lot of posters were trying to get across to the OP. She clearly didn’t want to hear that or accept it as a possibility.

And @FishyFriday sorry to say this and I don’t mean to come across horrible, but once again it’s the dad who is storing up issues for his kids in the long run. One thing I’ve seen from this board over the months is an overwhelming amount of shitty parenting coming from dads!

You really shouldn't have to be looking after his children on his access days. Can't he play golf when he hasn't got his daughters to look after? Apart from that, if the SD hasn't already got the impression that you're not sufficiently fit to be her guardian she soon will. I imagine the two issues are connected

Yet if there was almost on AIBU, from an ex saying that the partner of her ex is manipulative and taking advantage of her partner, there would be responses from SMs to say that it wasn't fair, that's she probably has a good reason to feel this way, that's it's probably not her fault. But when it's a SC, it's just recognising who they are. I agree that this is what upsets me in these threads. Step children who display behaviours that are common to children for various reasons, who are deemed requiring understanding and support, yet deemed difficult children, usually due to the ex, whose behaviour gets in the way of the SM being able to enjoy a nice family life with her partner and her children. Kids are not perfect. Many kids are demanding, attention seeking, rude at times, manipulative, disobedient etc... Parents accept it a lot if it and j deed, most kids grow out if their poor behaviour once they come to adulthood. SCs though are often expected to be problem free kids, who should adjust, be grateful, happy with it all, always polite, etc... Some kids are just like that, some are not but those who are not shouldn't be less well cared for even if they are not as pleasant.

I'm not sure I quite understand what point you are trying to make. Of course it's different when an adult is described as manipulative compared to a child, I've discussed that in another comment. As to the rest of your comment, you're kind of just saying the same thing as me. Some children are attention seeking, rude, manipulative, disobedient at times, and these are normal behaviour that do not mean they are being written off as bad people by anyone that happens to describe them or ask for advise tackling them.

Apart from that, if the SD hasn't already got the impression that you're not sufficiently fit to be her guardian she soon will. I imagine the two issues are connected

I believe we have a prime example of being needlessly nasty.

Can I ask what amazing insight you have that allowed you to come to this conclusion?

Also as a side point even legally married step parents arent guardians unless they adopt their kids which is clearly not the case here.

@Aimee1987

Apart from that, if the SD hasn't already got the impression that you're not sufficiently fit to be her guardian she soon will. I imagine the two issues are connected

I believe we have a prime example of being needlessly nasty.

Can I ask what amazing insight you have that allowed you to come to this conclusion?

Also as a side point even legally married step parents arent guardians unless they adopt their kids which is clearly not the case here.

I agree with you @Aimee1987 there was no need for that comment, it was unnecessarily nasty.

@TheSilence

And *@FishyFriday* sorry to say this and I don’t mean to come across horrible, but once again it’s the dad who is storing up issues for his kids in the long run. One thing I’ve seen from this board over the months is an overwhelming amount of shitty parenting coming from dads!

I agree with you. I was blaming my husband for encouraging it rather than helping her to find better ways of dealing with situations. And his ex too, who could also do with thinking about how to help her daughter rather than responding to behaviour that reinforces her own need to feel like the most important parent.

The behaviour is manipulative, no doubt about it. But both the cause and the solution lies in the dynamic between her parents - and neither of them wants to even acknowledge the issue because then they'd have to process years of bullshit they have so far failed to deal with.

It's that classic thing: it's not divorce that's bad for kids. It's the problematic relationship between their parents that led to and often continues after divorce.

If only I'd recognised that he hadn't processed this stuff (it's easy to be distracted by things and not see the real issues) years ago. I'd have told him to get counselling to get over his issues from and about the end of his previous relationship and then get back to me. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Kids are not perfect. Many kids are demanding, attention seeking, rude at times, manipulative, disobedient etc... Parents accept it a lot if it and j deed, most kids grow out if their poor behaviour once they come to adulthood. SCs though are often expected to be problem free kids, who should adjust, be grateful, happy with it all, always polite, etc...

I don't think SCs are expected to be problem-free by step-parents, more that those problems are far harder to endure or put aside when they're not your kids. Which is why people post on here, because it can be overwhelming.

That's the crux of the issue - most SPs are just good people trying to do their best but it is insanely hard to have to deal with all of these (I agree, normal for the most part) behaviours when you don't have the cushion of love that parents have for that child.

To use your analogy, if there was an AIBU saying "DS has a school friend who comes over for playdates, but he spends the majority of the time crying/pretending to cry in order to force DS to play only the games he likes or give him toys he wants even though it's DS's turn, and his dad who comes with him just there and lets it happen. It's awful listening to all the crying and whining every time they come" people would overwhelmingly be behind the poster just not inviting that child again/as often, because they can imagine how difficult it is to be around that behaviour when you can't step in yourself to stop it. It is difficult behaviour to endure even for parents who love that child more than anything!

But SPs have go through that over and over and over and the option isn't there to just not see them as much, as it is for most people who spend time with children who aren't their own. So I think it's totally natural that SPs would have a lot of frustration and might come on here to vent in order to have a shoulder to cry on from people who have experienced similar, which they may not have in real life. It doesn't mean that they are unkind to the children when they're with them.