EHCP support thread no. 6

[Needlenardlenoo]

This thread is to support everyone engaged in the EHCP process. The purpose is two fold: so that you don't feel alone if you're involved with it, and so you can easily find posters who are experienced with the various difficulties to help point you in the right direction, whether that be by giving general advice, telling you specifically what action should, or could, be taken in a particular situation, or countering common myths you will hear, such as:

"Your child is not X enough to get an EHCP"
"The school has to do/pay Y first"
"EHCPs are only for Z situation"
"The local authority do X/say Y/won't do Z" (the SEN Code 2014 applies to the whole of England: it doesn't vary by local authority). [Wales and Scotland have different regimes].

It is particularly important at the moment to understand clearly what your child's rights actually are in law (not what the school or LA or Sendias say they are), when the government are actively trying to remove EHCPs and are leaking stories regularly to the media, with the intention, I suspect, of deflecting attention from their own shortcomings onto parents who are already in a difficult situation. If in doubt, the charity IPSEA has neutral and factual information:
https://www.ipsea.org.uk/

Here are links to previous threads:

Original EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread
EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2
EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3
EHCP support thread no. 4 -
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4
EHCP support thread no. 5 -
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5309128-ehcp-support-thread-no-5?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share [please post on here till it's full]

@KeepItSpinning thank you very much, will be careful what I say and will post here again when I’m at the registering appeal stage.

Parental preference school is maintained special school, out of area but closer to home than a couple of the home LA maintained special schools.

If multiple special schools can meet need, what is the deciding factor? Is it cost comparison? Can I say I don’t want transport to lower the total costs of my preference?

Excluding transport costs, is the cost of a special school placement the same for all children? Or does a placement cost less if children already live in that LA?

I would think very carefully before saying you don’t want transport. You do not know what the future holds. If your preference is a maintained SS close to home, the LA would have a difficult job of showing incompatibility with efficient use of resources based on transport costs. I wouldn’t even entertain it.

If you are looking at maintained SS, the LA is likely to name the nearest that can meet needs. However, LAs are sometimes reluctant to name OOA schools and force parents to appeal. It being OOA doesn’t mean it can’t be named, and it doesn’t change when it should be named.

Costs aren’t the same for all. Some will cost more than others. It depends on what provision is required and what is included in the base fees. Sometimes LAs claim their schools are nil cost, because they are place funded, so according to them, any OOA school is automatically more expensive. Don’t listen to this. Costs are still relevant. Besides, in reality, in the vast majority of cases there are costs associated with attending the LA schools even if place funded. And with the current pressure on places, SS are mostly over the number of pre-paid places, anyway.

Thanks for your response. This is such a mess. Our case worker has just replied to say that the EHCP is being finalised and sent for signing and the provision will be specified in section F with details of what has been agreed.

I presume she means what has been agreed in isolation by the LA as they haven’t agreed anything with HOP or the school. Have not had any further drafts so not sure what it will say.

we will appeal - what are our rights in getting access to a full time education in the meantime? I am worried HOP will now dig their heels in and not do any more than he currently has if section F turns out to be useless

The LA doesn’t need permission to finalise. They will still have to ensure DS receives a suitable full-time education under section 19 of the Education Act 1996 and anything in F as per section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014.

Please help! - DS is 4 and due to start reception school in September.
Our first choice is a close by MS, has good SEN provisions and when I spoke to the Head during an open day, I told them DS needs (suspected ASD with social and communication difficulties) and was told those needs could be met, with or without an EHCP.
Our second choice - also MS - admited their SEN provisions were limited and only really available to children with an EHCP. However the school itself has movement breaks and a lot of ourdoor learning as part of their ethos.
We received notification an EHCP would be issued to our son 5 days before primary school placements were announced.
We got our second choice school and called the LA for advice, which was to continue with the admissions route as once the EHCP was finalised and issued, he would no longer be on the LA primary school admission route. So we accepted the second choice place and a week later were issued the draft EHCP (which is a mess - but that's another story). We asked for our first choice school to be named and were told that consultations to both settings had been sent and at this time, unless our 1st choice indicates they can meet DS needs, the school placement for our 2nd choice will be upheld. If we're not happy with the school we have accepted, we'll will need to appeal the decision as detailed in letters of communication we received via the admissions team.
Our case worker also said:

"As the placement was accepted by you, unless First choice indicate they can meet need, at this time I feel that the placement of 2nd choice may be upheld. I need to wait to see the responses from both settings before proceeding to name a setting in section I of the finalised EHCP".

We have now seen First choice have submitted the following "The setting should not be named in the final EHC Plan because the attendance of this child or young person there would be incompatible with the efficient education of others, or the efficient use of resources". The second choice school still pending.
Please what does this mean and what are our choices to proceed? Does this mean we have to name our second choice in section I ? And if second choice say that same does that mean we have no school?
Very stressed, all the while trying to make comments and amendments to draft that I'm already aware may or may not even be taken into consideration.
Any advice?

what does this mean

For schools that are not wholly independent, the LA must name your preference unless the LA can prove:
-The setting is unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs of the child or young person; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources.

This is set out in section 39(4) of the Children and Families Act 2014. Unless the LA can prove one of the above, they can and must name the school even if the school objects when consulted. You don’t need an offer of a place. That is only required if the school is wholly independent. However, LAs sometimes refuse and force parents to appeal.

The bar to prove one of the above is high. Far higher than LAs and many schools admit. It has to be something tangible and specific and is more than an “adverse effect”, “impact on” or “prejudicial to”. So, you need to dig into the specifics rather than the vague reasons LAs often rely on. For example, what resources &/or other children? What incompatibility? Is it really incompatibility with efficient education or only incompatibility with providing an education in excess of what is considered an efficient standard of education? Could anything reasonably overcome the incompatibility? What are the cost comparisons?

what are our choices to proceed?

When the LA finalise, your options are a) appeal, b) don’t appeal and attend (or attend once CSA) the school named, or c) don’t appeal and make your own arrangements. You could, in theory, request an early review with the aim of requesting another placement. However, the LA is highly unlikely to agree to hold an early review at that point.

Does this mean we have to name our second choice in section I ?

You don’t name a school in section I. The LA does. You state your preferred placement in response to the draft. The LA may or may not name your preference.

And if second choice say that same does that mean we have no school?

A (non-wholly independent) school objecting when consulted doesn’t necessarily mean the LA won’t name them. When LAs don’t name parental preference(s), most of the time they name another school. A minority of EHCPs will only have a type of placement named. Although, where mainstream is named as type case law dictates a specific placement should normally be named. An even smaller number of EHCPs will have section I completely blank - this is unlikely to be something you need to worry about.

Hi @ratchet this is not your fault. The EHCP system is supposed to be sorted re the school place in advance of regular admissions. The systems were never designed ro work in parallel like this (we had the same issue with an EHCP granted in June before a late August year 7 start - however the LA named our allocated school which we were happy with).

I think put your energy into getting the EHCP as good as you can. Our LA did make aome of the changes I requested although tbh it's still a poorly written document. Just keep saying our parental preference is school X on repeat. You may yet get it.

This has been the most helpful and clear advice so far. Thank you

When you say to dig deeper, is this usually with the school or LA or both? My plan was to contact both schools and chat with their SENCOs face to face and follow up with emails but also to have another look at the schools. But do we also reply to our case worker with these questions to ask for specifics of like you say "incompatibility".

Thank you @KeepItSpinning and @Phineyj

Going through both admissions types simultaneously is overwhelming and confusing and we are often getting different advice from different individuals we speak to.

In the meantime, I'll work on the draft but also communicate with our second place as in line with standard admissions procedure they have started to send through paperwork to complete with deadlines. As well as links to school uniform etc. We had initially avoided completing any of this as we haven't known what to do next

@Ratchet101 the problem when EHCPs are finalised late is that schools already have their allocation of students for the coming September. What should happen, as said above, is that EHCPs are sorted out first, then general applications, so if schools have eg been allocated 2 EHCPs, they know that they have 2 fewer places to offer in the general allocations. When an EHCP place is requested after this, the school will already have allocated all their spaces and so an extra student will be more than they are expecting. Hence they reject the request.

If you had been offered a place in the general allocation, they would have likely have accepted the EHCP consultation.

I would push the LA - the school's answer is about the number of students they have, not about whether they can actually meet need. I would also check your timescales - if the LA have taken longer than they should, would the EHCP have been finalised before allocation day? If so, you have a lever to suggest that this would not have happened had they done their job properly....

@Ratchet101 speak to the LA and school. As well as also speaking to your second preference, contact any other schools who have been consulted or you suspect may have been consulted.

There has always been EHCPs (and SSEN before that) finalised after national offer day for the normal admission round. It isn’t that they weren’t designed to run like that.

It doesn’t matter that the EHCP has been finalised after the national offer day for the normal admission round. EHCP admissions are dealt with separately to normal admissions. The normal admission process doesn’t matter. The finalised EHCP overrides any offer made via the normal process. The school being at PAN isn’t enough of a reason for the LA to refuse to name the school. On its own, being at PAN or ‘full’ is not enough to prove incompatibility. This applies even in infant classes at 30. Pupils with EHCPs naming the school finalised outside the normal admission round are excepted pupils for infant classes size purposes.

Incompatibility with efficient education of others or use of resources isn’t always about the number of pupils. There are other possible reasons.

@KeepItSpinning thank you so much, that’s really helpful to hear. And that’s a very valid point re. transport.

I just had another question. Following tribunal, there is now provision in F for OT/SLT time, carried out by local NHS service. When the funding was updated, there was no mention of additional funding for OT/SLT time (over 40 hours in total).

Should funding for this be awarded? Or perhaps do they have service agreements in place meaning they don’t need to fund it separately?

Focus on the provision in F rather than funding.

Sometimes there are SLAs for all (or rather all of what that provider can provide because there are some CYP’s provision the SLA providers can’t provide) or some therapy provision. There might not be any specific separate funding.

Placemarking. Only just found this thread. DD 16 ASD doing A levels (fell out of school in Y9; attempted to start again at 6th form.) We are waiting to hear back from tribunal after refusal to assess. On the run for the rest of today; will RTFT later!

Unfortunately, our SS secondary placement hasn't worked out and we're asking for an emergency AR and pursuing an EOTIS package for DS.

I'm waiting to hear back from the private EP we've worked with to see if she'll be able to attend the AR and/or write up an addendum to her most recent report (which is now 14 months old). Otherwise I think the only other current evidence will be the school's own statement and documentation. We haven't had any input from CAMHS (still waiting for our referral to make it through the system), but we could possibly arrange a follow-up with a private psychiatrist and get a letter from our GP.

Will this be enough to prove the need for EOTIS?

If the EP and psychiatrist are not available before the AR, can we submit their evidence afterwards?

Am I correct that the LA must respond to the AR within four weeks, and, if they agree to amend, they must issue a finalised EHCP within 8 weeks (so 12 weeks total from the date of the AR)?

DH and I are starting (with input from DS) to map out what we think would work for him as part of EOTIS provision. Do we need to have this completely ready at the AR?

Will this be enough to prove the need for EOTIS?

It is about quality of evidence rather than quantity. You need evidence it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school. For some, what you describe would be enough. For others, it wouldn’t. It depends on what is written in the evidence.

Getting agreement to leave I blank for EOTAS/EOTIS is only part of the process. Looking at the content of package is another. You are likely to need further evidence for a proper EOTAS/EOTIS package.

If the EP and psychiatrist are not available before the AR, can we submit their evidence afterwards?

The AR meeting is only one part of the AR process. If you have further evidence after the meeting but still during the AR process, you can submit further evidence. After the conclusion of the AR process, if you have to appeal, you can use the new evidence for that. If you don’t appeal, you can ask the LA to consider it/request another AR, but there’s no guarantee the LA will agree.

Am I correct that the LA must respond to the AR within four weeks, and, if they agree to amend, they must issue a finalised EHCP within 8 weeks (so 12 weeks total from the date of the AR)?

From the date of the AR meeting, yes. The AR is a process rather than just the meeting. The AR meeting is only one part of the AR process.

DH and I are starting (with input from DS) to map out what we think would work for him as part of EOTIS provision. Do we need to have this completely ready at the AR?

I am assuming you mean the AR meeting when you say AR. No; you don’t need it all for them. Having as much evidence and information as possible prior to the meeting will help, but you can submit further evidence after the meeting and if the LA propose to amend, you will get the chance to comment on the proposed amendments.

Why do you want to know? This post, the thread you started on here and your posts elsewhere make it look like you are asking for some kind of research or for an article of some sort.

How are her A-levels going @AprilFlowersMay ? I'm an A-level teacher (Economics) and form tutor if that's any help at all.

Has anyone experienced anything like this before? Child’s Ehcp was finalised last year. School said it could meet needs. I noticed most of the provision was happening, finally got a meeting and the senco told me the ehcp was over the top and my child didn’t need half of what’s on it. So they just ignored majority of ehcp. They said my child is meeting all the out comes which I do agree but it comes at an emotional cost and I think the outcomes were possibly too low on hindsight. My child has increasing anxiety about attending school. In the surface he seems ok as he masks highly, which I suspect is why school thinks he doesn’t warrant the provision. He is 2.5 years behind age related expectations, ASD, adhd, struggles with executive function among other things. Can be pretty avoidant. However has friends and does well socially, and “ok” on the surface. I’m going to call an early annual review and try to get an independent school named. School is adamant they can meet needs and that I’m an over the top parent. Also my child is well behaved in school, no SEMH other than anxiety. Any advice or experience with similar? Thanks in advance

@Mumoftwo23 what year is your DS in? Aside from my kiddo who isn’t really in school atm I have two other diagnosed ASD kids and they masked at a high price through school so really feel you.

@Phineyj she’s actually doing ok academically for the most part (doing special interest subjects): and if the LA and school stay off our backs regarding how little she attends and lets her take her exams when the time comes we’ll be ok, but so far no-one really knows what to do with her: LA say school haven’t proved that they can’t meet need but she can’t cope with more than 2 hours a day in school and all the legal stuff is really fuzzy for post 16. I should have pushed so much harder when she stopped attending in Y9 but hindsight is 20/20 …

@DP97 like @KeepItSpinning wondered at your motives: doesn’t feel like you are here to give or receive support….

I think if she keeps on top of academic work and therefore tests well, they may overlook attendance. How many hours is she supposed to be in? How are her test results this year? How is she doing socially?

(Don't feel you have to answer these questions but they're what I would be wondering if she were one of my tutees).

I thought tutor time was compulsory because PHSE is often delivered during it, but @KeepItSpinning or another knowledgeable poster said once that missing it could be a reasonable adjustment.

My school is pretty relaxed about students going off site/home during free periods, but most students live very close by, which helps. They do have supervised study twice a week though.

He’s in year 3. Hoping for change of placement for year 4 if it goes in our favour! My eldest was an extremely high masker and then became mentally unwell. I don’t want to predict problems that aren’t there and of course they’re different children but equally I now can see the pattern and don’t want a repeat!

Welcome @AprilFlowersMay. The Tribunal decision should fall in your favour. If it doesn’t, from what you have said, you need someone to look over the decision and case. The LA is applying an unlawful test. That test is the same for 16 year olds who are post 16 as it is for CSA pupils. For an RtA appeal, you do not need to prove the setting can’t meet needs. Besides, if DD can’t attend full-time, the school can’t meet needs.

@Phineyj at the minute, RSE/RSHE (rather than the wider scope of PSHE) is compulsory for schools with sixth forms (but not colleges. Although many colleges do provide it and there has been a push for a while to make it mandatory.), individual reasonable adjustments can still be made. In many cases, that will be adjustments to how it is delivered within the classroom, but it could be not delivered during tutor time at all where that is the reasonable adjustment that is needed.

@Mumoftwo23 I have replied to you on your thread under a different name. I don’t want you to think I am ignoring you. Be aware, many have to appeal to get an independent placement. Even if you don’t have to appeal, if you haven’t even requested an early review yet, you may not have a finalised amended EHCP by the start of the next academic year. An amended EHCP can take 12 weeks from the review meeting, but LAs regularly breach this timescale and even if you force their hand, it may well be longer than the time left before the start of Y4.

DD's school 6th form timetables pshe /rshe separately. She is disapplied from that lesson as ASD affects her ability to understand or engage at the same level as other students. It is instead covered as part of the 1 to 1 sessions she does, using the topics as a starting point for whatever they are trying to work on. I think the fact that the teachers really struggled when she questioned everything they taught in yr10 in every lesson! From explaining how peer pressure works to why people get stressed, they really didn't know how to answer questions that are not normally asked... So we all agreed it was better for all for her not to be in the lessons 🙂