New Year No Cry Sleep Solution Thread

[BertieBotts]

Does anyone want to join me in going through the whole book of the No Cry Sleep Solution and doing it properly, like a New Year's resolution type thing? (I am happy to start a week or few into the new year if people need time to sort things out first, get a copy of the book, etc)

I ask because the first time I read the book, I was quite sleep deprived and frustrated and looking for quick solutions, and didn't really realise that it's not so much a book of suggestions as a process to go through which helps change your thoughts as much as your behaviour surrounding sleep. I did the sleep logs, and then DS was ill, and then it was Christmas and we went away for a week, and I just felt it was pointless starting anything new after all that so I probably need to do the sleep logs again before I start so that I have a better comparison. But as a bonus I already have the different suggestions from chapter 4 summarised with page numbers which should be helpful.

Does anyone want to join me?

Hi Guys,

Can I ask a dim question? I've been reading NCSS and one of the things that EP is really big on (like every other book!) is a bit of a routine. My question is, how on earth do you know what routine might suit your DC - i.e. when to try and plan naps,etc. DD has never been keen on napping and, to be honest, I gave up on any kind of structure early on. I feel that the time has come to reimpose that, but no idea how!

In terms of sharing our issues, DD is getting better at going to sleep - normally a quiet whisper by the cot or a bit of patting is enough. Takes about 10 minutes usually. The issues tend to be multiple wakings or early wakings (or both in combination!). She doesn't feed to sleep in the night and (except when she's been ill and off solids) I don't generally feed before about 4:30, so she's resettled numerous times without.

I think that the things I need to work on are:

-daytime structure and longer naps;
-gradual withdrawl for night settling (although effectively starting a couple of steps down the line, as we already don't pick her up. Picking her up makes her furious when she wants to sleep.Hence a very shortlived attempt at PUPD. When your baby screams blue murder when picked up, it's clearly not a winner!).

What are other people going to focus on?

Hi everyone,

I'm going to do the sleep log tonight, and have a feeling that it will be fairly similar to yours, IsloJo (without that beautiful four hour stint!).

Confused, it sounds like you're already doing pretty well if DD can go to sleep in the cot, even with you there... I think that's the major hurdle for a lot of us. Why do you think your DD is waking?

I have wondered the same as you with the daytime routine..most people seem to base it around feeding times, but DD is still fed on demand and varies so much from day to day how often, how much and for how long she feeds. Today she has probably slept for a grand total of about an hour all day... but she doesn't seem tired. i know the book says how important nap times are, but I don't want to force her to nap when she seems happy without. Dilemmas...

My question is about the Pantley's Gentle Removal Plan... my DD falls asleep so quickly for her first nighttime feed and during the night, but continues feeding for some time after. If I remove her before she sleeps, how will she have a good feed?

good luck everyone with sleep logs

Why she's waking is the million dollar question. DH and I debate it endlessly. I think that the problem is that she does need one of us there to go off. So, for example, if she wakes around one, often a pat and off she goes, but if you leave her she works up to a massive scream. I think that that's where the gradual withdrawing thing comes in. If she can go off without us in the room, perhaps she'll be able to go back.

Feel exactly the same about naps. 2x 30 minutes today. Even a moving pram won't keep her asleep past 30 minutes.

No idea on Pantley pull off I'm afraid. Maybe someone else?

Thanks for the encouragement. Good vibes for tonight!

Hi Confused, DS is also a short napper. Today I lay down with him and when the magic 40 minute mark came round (he ALWAYS wakes up after 40 minutes), I watched him like a hawk. As expected, he stirred and the little eyes opened a bit. I was in there like a shot with the boob and he nodded right back off. So I got a 1.5 hour nap out of him. Result! EP says to do anything and everything to get the naps happening so I'll keep up this little routine for a while and see what happens.
Loopy, I find that DS is tired after about 2 hours of being awake. So we've had a regular 9am nap for a while - he snuggles up to me and nurses himself to sleep and it takes less than five minutes. Usually I feel like a sleep too so I just love going back to bed at 9am. Again at about midday he's ready for a snooze and we'll either go for a walk in the sling or the pram or will snuggle up together. Every baby is different of course but I hear that 2 hours is about as long as most can go awake before they need another snooze.
Sleepy vibes to everyone tonight!

PS Loopy could you try giving your DD a burping/holding her upright after the night BF to wake her up a tiny bit? I put my DS in his cot last night and tickled his cheek until the eyes opened a bit. He was annoyed and had a little fuss for about five seconds but I was amazed that he dropped back off to sleep IN HIS COT with no nipple in his mouth.

Confused, we don't really have a routine either, at least not in the daytime. And I quite like it... However, I am getting fed up with the sleep situation, so perhaps its worth a try. But as you say Loopy, its tricky when you feed on demand and times vary. Although I am trying to keep to fairly regular times for solid food now that is introduced - was hoping that her bf times would evolve a routine around that but it isn't working out that way so far. Every time I think things are settling down to a pattern she changes again!

DD also doesn't nap for very long, or at any particular time, and mostly to be honest her naps are either in the car, the carrier or her pushchair. But how do you insist on regular naps without tying yourself to be in the house at a particular time each day?

Today I was just about to throw out my 2009 diary, and flicked through it to check if there was any important info I needed to keep. I found the pages from when DD was about 4 weeks - 2 months old, when I used to write down her feed times, and realised that she is waking to feed MORE often now than when she was 4 weeks old! How did that happen?!?!

Thanks for tips IsloJo - I do always lift dd up after feeding but she stays asleep - will try tickling cheek. I'd love her to drop off in cot like your ds. It's so hard when they're asleep to wake them, isn't it?

Shanti, I agree that I don't want such a strict routine that we can't leave the house at certain times.

Anyway, did nighttime sleep log last night and am doing naps today (wrong way round I think, but heyho!). She had a relatively good night, worked out at 7 wakenings with 10 hours sleep. She even had a 3 and a quarter hour stretch- lovely!

She's already had 2 25 minute naps today, but I cannot seem to extend them. I have already in the past tried all the things EP suggests but to no avail. Hoping that working on sleep generally might help.

What are other people's nap experiences? I think this might be key for several of us.
Also, how many are co-sleeping and of those who is intending to continue and who wants to get dc into cot?

Bertie, how are you getting on as thread originator? Are you starting your sleep logs today?
Moaningminnie, I hope work is OK today.

Hi everyone. I'm going to do sleep logs today.

DD ended up in our bed last night from 2.30am - we both slept until 7ish then which was lovely - I really don't know if I want to persevere and get her to stay in her cot or to just go with what gets us both sleep for now.

As for naps I usually try to encourage her to have one at about 9.30am and one at about 1.30pm and if she sleeps for less than an hour I try to settle her back off again. I don't find sticking to certain times too restrictive - if we're shopping/walking the dog etc. she falls asleep in the pushchair and if we're out at someone's house I just cuddle her on my lap.

On a good day she'll have about 3 hours napping spread over 2 naps but she needs a lot of 'help' most of the time!

Loopyloo - what about a nappy change to wake your DD up a bit?

loopy

Re your question about cot sleeping, I wonder whether it might be an idea for us to all say how old our babies are, how we sleep and our aims. That way we could all look back and remember each other's situation. Plus, it'd be a good way to track general progress. I don't mind starting and I'll see if anyone else wants to join in:

Baby's age: 8 1/2 months
Sleep location: mostly in cot. Comes in with us if things get really dire!
Type of feeding: breastfeeding and solids
Aims: 1. Reduce night wakings to one (sleeping through being a distant dream!)

1. Easier resettling when waking
2. Sleeping past 5:30am
3. Longer and better naps
4. (A big one!) Able to go to sleep on own.

I'm not mad on routine either, but I think that DD is getting to that age where she needs to know roughly when in the day to expect naps. I have the advantage that she's old enough for solids, so basically I'm aiming that there is a nap a bit after breakfast, and then one a bit after lunch. Hopefully that also gives flexiblity - i.e. late lunch equals late nap, and since they are things I have to do every day anyway, I don't feel I'm tying myself down too much. I'll add extra naps if she seems to need them, although all the books suggest only two naps a day now.

I'm doing sleep logs today too.

I'd like to join in too, I am going a bit mad with lack of sleep. DS is 4 1/2 months, only naps in the pram and on me and sleeps max 2 hours in a stretch at night. Feeding and weight gain is also quite a big issue for us too so on the advice of the Dr we've started weaning early. Not ideal but we can't get milk in him any other way.

I have a feeling the two are related, the feeding issues and sleep, so not sure if it's a good idea to do any sleep management atm, although this seems nice and gentle and gradual. I haven't got the book yet but it's on its way. Have had a flick through Nap Solution though.

Looking forward to checking in with you all soon!

Hello, yes I am ok, had a bit of a wobble yesterday, this sleep issue is one of many I have to sort at the moment, but I feel it's an important one as I am getting barely any time for me.

Nearly forgot to do sleep logs today but DS is just having his first nap now so will be able to write it down. If you are waiting for the book to arrive or don't have a copy you can download the logs from the website.

On routines, I have always hated the idea of them and prefer flexibility, but have started to realise it would help me if I had a very vague idea of what times certain things should happen (meals mainly) and then if something is up I might realise more quickly etc. Also DS tends to sleep in his pushchair mostly so I can still go out. What I found helped with DS was just making brief notes over a few days of what times he slept and ate (and had his nappy changed, if you want) and I did notice a pattern whereas before I had never realised there was one, I just fed him when he was hungry and he slept when he was tired. I think they tend to get into more of a pattern some time after 6 months though I am sure every baby is different and of course their patterns can change.

Also what I do now is when we wake up and have breakfast I make a mental note of the time and add 3 or 4 hours to give me a rough time to be thinking about lunch. Then after lunch I make a mental note of what time it will be in 4 or 5 hours to make me start tea earlier as I was only starting it when I felt hungry and it took too long and DS would be too hungry to sleep but too tired to eat and it was miserable. Milk doesn't fill him up any more and I keep forgetting that!

One more thing which helps you work out a routine is if you do any groups or activities during the week, write out a grid with the days of the week and "morning" "lunch" "afternoon" "evening" and write in your activity plans, then you will see when you need to have meals etc on some days and it can help to stretch this out to all days.

I like your little form Confusedfirsttimemum.

Baby's age: 15 months
Sleep location*: Co-sleeping but he has a sidecar cot and is usually away from me when asleep. I am not thinking about moving him to a cot at the moment as I think I will put him straight into a bed.
Type of feeding: breastfeeding and solids
Aims:

1. To get him to sleep early in the evening, say around 8pm.
2. Would be a bonus if he slept through without feeding but I don't really wake up so don't mind that much. Number 1 is my priority!

Damn, did a big post and lost it.

Short version:

Bertie, what time does your DS go to bed and does he have a bedtime routine?

Oh no, that happened to me the other day.

He doesn't really go to bed at any specific time or have a routine. Usually in the evenings he plays and I either play with him or watch the TV/read a book/magazine and I watch for signs of tiredness, when I think he might go to sleep I take him up to bed and feed him - he did used to go to sleep like this about half the time so I am not just being totally mad, it's just since we have moved, this hasn't worked 95% of the time.

Another thing that used to work was putting him in his pushchair and either rocking it, letting him watch TV (ITNG and Waybuloo seem to send him to sleep the most) or just leaving him in a darkened room with no activity and he would go to sleep - he'd be quite happy in the pushchair and not crying, sometimes he would even go up to it and try to climb in by himself if he was tired. So I have been trying that as well, but he gets fed up most times after about 15 minutes and I take him out again.

When I take him up to bed I tried after a certain time (when I knew he was tired) just ignoring him and pretending to be asleep but he just gets completely hyper and sits there making random noises at me, playing with the lightshow thing on the side of his cot, shouting, and standing up on the headboard and kicking me - he doesn't go to sleep and I get annoyed after a while and pick him up and lie him down more roughly than I would usually which he thinks is a game! So at this point I get fed up and come downstairs and either put the telly back on or he goes in his playpen in the kitchen while I go online or read. And then he ends up shunting between the pushchair and the playpen until he is completely exhausted and will go to sleep when I feed him, usually at about 10.30-11 ish but has been up to 1am.

Oh dear Bertie, that sounds hard. Let's hope that this is the start of sorting it out. Do you think he resists sleep because life is such fun he doesn't want to miss it? have you decided yet whether you are going to go straight for an earlier bedtime or gradually move it forward? I hope that you are not too exhausted to do the sleep log - I found it difficult to motivate myself each time!

mistletoe, when I said it was hard to wake your sleeping child, I meant hard as in I don't want to, rather than actually difficult! If only she were difficult to wake! Quite the opposite!

Good idea Confused, here's mine:
Baby's age: 5 months
Sleep location: Co-sleeping, but we have a co-sleeper cot (currently used to hold my books, bottle of water, muslins etc!)
Type of feeding: Exclusively breastfed
Aims: 1. To get dd to sleep alone in the evening in her co-sleeper so I don't have to go to bed at 7pm!

1. To decrease night-wakings (to 3 night wakings? Arbitrary but it would be a great improvement without being too ambitious!)

Have just tried to take him up for a nap (he was yawning and I could do with an hour's sleep too) and realised I left his two best moves off my list - crawling over my head is one and also kneeling up with his hands in the air, yelling "AAAAAAAAAAA" and launching himself at me at which point I get out of the way very quickly but the pretending to be asleep is up

I have no idea why he is this active when he is supposed to be sleepy, and the thing is even if I get him calm first by doing nice quiet activities like reading as soon as I move towards the bedroom he seems to get all excited and be awake again. Or the worst one which is when I am feeding him and he is nearly asleep and then suddenly the switch comes on again and he is manic.

He very rarely gets sweets or chocolate or other junk foods so I don't think that is the problem. I think you might be right loopyloo that he doesn't want to miss out, I am the same, I hate going to bed early if there are people round (when I was with XP I mean obviously) - and if there is anyone in the house, and I get them to pretend to fall asleep and turn all the lights off on the way up to bed, he is much happier to go off and I am much more likely to get him down. He used to hang on until XP came to bed which might be the problem as there is nobody else to come to bed now, maybe he thinks there is someone still up in the house. I have tried turning all lights off etc on the way to bed but it doesn't work unless someone is here to pretend they are going to bed too.

I am not really sure how to gradually move it forward as it isn't at a set time at the moment, so what I was going to do was set a time (possibly start with a later one) and after that time if he doesn't go straight to sleep, keep all lights and interaction very low (ie make it boring!) and just keep up the alternation between pushchair and playpen every time he gets fed up, and stick to getting up at a resonably early time and hope that helps.

Oh Bertie. How hard.

I've got a few thoughts. Sorry if they sound daft or you've tried them. I've had my fair share of 'helpful' suggestions from people which make me " you think I haven't tried that." I'll take any suggestions going from you guys, and hope you feel the same!

Firstly, is he used to his new room. You said you've recently split up from your partner and moved house. Does he play in his room. Might it be an idea to spend some time doing quiet activities in his cot with no agenda (i.e. not immediately before bed). Just sit and read a story and then go off and do something else, or something. NCSS recommends this for babies who've been CC'd or who seem to reject their cot. I wonder whether it might also work for a new house. This is just based on the fact that the hit rate of feeding to sleep seems to have gone down so much!

Secondly, have you thought about doing a bedtime routine? His evenings sound quite stimulating: he's playing or watching TV and then, when he seems tired, he moves to his bed. Is it possible that, as he gets older, he's really realising what he's missing and wants to stay doing those things til he actually drops? Have you thought about doing a little routine like:

tv or story
bath
feed
story
lights out and cuddle

You could start it late -say to end at 11pm to start with, and work back.

Another suggestion would be to think about not getting him out of the bedroom if he won't sleep. Perhaps he's a smart boy who realises that, if he doesn't go off, he gets to go and join the fun with mummy all over again. Not sure what you do instead, all the stuff about keeping the lights low and it boring maybe?

Just a thought....Feel free to ignore. I'm very grateful for my DH in all our sleep problems, so think you're being really brave and strong tackling it on your own.

Oh Bertie Botts I really feel for you. That sounds v tough.
But the staying up til 1am thing makes me wonder if your DD could be overtired?
I'm no big fan of strict routines but a set bedtime (with room for flexibility) and a bedtime routine could help (at least according to EP).
Before we first introduced a set bedtime for DS he would stay up and just come to bed with us when we turned in and it was often difficult to get him to settle.
One day, after we got back from a wedding in the States, we just randomly picked 7pm as bedtime and started the bedtime routine an hour earlier and to our amazement, he settled pretty easily (of course, the night waking thing is another matter entirely!).
DS really seems to enjoy his little bed routine - nothing too exciting, just a bath, quiet music, massage with dim lighting, cuddles and quiet play, BF and sleep.
What solutions are you going to try?

Sorry Bertie, your DS not DD.
Confused - SNAP! Just read your post and realised I have more or less repeated it! Great minds and all that...

Hi can I join.

Confused found me on another thread and directed me here.

Baby DS 7.5 months
sleep I moved him into cot in his own room 9 days ago (before that he was in travel cot in our room)
feeding BF about 5 a day and 3 solid meals a day mainly BLW
Aims 1)Stop night feeds and reduce night waking 2) put DD and DS in room together to sleep DD is 2 and sleeps 12-14 hours a night without waking and has done since 9 weeks you would think I knew what I was doing.

I put DS in DD's room 9 days ago as DS was feeding every 2 hours and has done 2-4hourly since birth. I tried CC for 6 nights but have reverted to feeding him at around 2 and then around 6 as I couldn't do CC anymore. I haven't read NCSS yet but will try to find it tomorrow.

We do routine here but DS doesn't seem to like it and if he doesn't want to nap or sleep at a certain time then he just doesn't and there's not much I can do about it. At the moment he is napping in the car or buggy and falling asleep at 7ish he sometimes wakes 45mins later and then takes ages to go back to sleep once he is asleep though he has been going through to about 1.30-2am feed and then about 5.30am he feeds again and I take him into our bed and we sleep till 8ish when DD wakes up.

Confused I just read a bit of the thread and I think DS might hate his cot because of the CC I tried . I might try the playing/stories in his cot to get him used to it.

Gosh Bertie that does sound like hard work. I can see why you want to sort it out. No suggestions I'm afraid as DD is my first and younger than your DS.

Loopy - Sorry - I got the wrong end of the stick

Here's my details

Baby's age: 7.5 months
Sleep location: Starts off in cot, often ends up in our bed by 3am
Type of feeding: formula (was EBF until 3 months then mixed until 6 months) + solids (BLW)
Aims:

1. For her to fall asleep by herself in her cot, preferably without her dummy.
2. To reduce nightwakings - ideally to zero but at the moment once for a feed would be fantastic and even twice for settling would be a big improvement!

Febes

Don't beat yourself up. Tired, desperate people do things which do not match the parenting style they want to follow. CC works for some, but we tried it for a few nights in desparation and it wasn't for us either. The idea is that you spend a few minutes 2 or 3 times a day doing nice quiet things in the cot. Ideally you then try and get the baby interested in a toy and then fade into the background across the room. Even before we did CC we'd done some of this, and it does seem to make a difference to feeling the cot is somewhere nice. I'd originally read not to play in the cot (like those articles for adults that say don't watch tv in bed), but this is what works better for us.

On the naps, have you tried writing down when he naps for a few days? There might be more of a patten than you think. I think that the idea with routine in the NCSS is to try and go with what's natural and seems to fit the baby (as opposed to the other, more timetabled approach that people like Gina Ford prefer, which works for some but sounds like it wouldn't suit you).

Finally, I have come to the conclusion that good sleepers are 90% born, not made. I have heard the story "one of my children was a magnificent sleeper but the other wasn't" so many times. I am hoping that, since DD is the first, I'm due a good sleeper for no. 2 (not that I'm planning no. 2. Goodness, I was tired enough in the first trimester without 4 night wakings!).

Thanks for the suggestions - he seems to like the new bedroom and is happy playing in there. I have put the cot on the same side of the bed as it's always been so not much different. However it's hard for me to let him play in there without close supervision as my telephone and internet router are plugged in there and I have nothing to block off the sockets with. Before I had these he spent the first few nights here emptying all my clothes out of my drawers while I read a book in bed, once I had given up!

I had thought of just staying in the room with him until he went to sleep, I tried this in our old house and was up there for 3 hours without success (I ended up bringing him down and putting him in the pushchair where he fell asleep!) - it is so so frustrating though and I just find myself getting annoyed with him which I don't want. Also when he has had enough milk and wants to go off and play he is so strong willed that it's very difficult to keep him in a calm relaxed sleeping/feeding sort of position. I can pick him up and put him by my side soothingly as often as I want but he will not stay there. I just ended up a lot more stressed and thought what is the point if this is causing more stress? I might as well let him exhaust himself and get on with reading a book or being online or whatever. But you are right, he probably knows that if he doesn't want to go to sleep he can come downstairs again, which is not really what I want!

The solutions I want to try are:

1. Bedtime routine (P100) - would like this not to be too long, but at the moment it is taking forever anyway so I could start with a long one and reduce it. However I will have to get over baths being traumatic first if I want to include a bath (he always used to bath with his Dad so I am having trouble with this as well).
2. Early bedtime (P103) - this is the main goal really. I do think he definitely gets overtired.
3. Daytime routine (P106) - I really think this could help me as well and I definitely need to get organised with doing food earlier if I want to do the bedtime routine as we always end up eating really late and by then I don't want to start a 1-2 hour long routine, I just want him to go to sleep, he is usually overtired as well which doesn't help.

Also (not in the book I don't think) if the routine etc doesn't help I will start trying to reduce naps. I am not sure this is the best solution since he is grumpy if he doesn't have 2 naps, but he does go to sleep earlier and possibly he's only having naps to make up for the lack of sleep he's had the previous evening, if that makes sense. E.g. he is asleep now and I have my fingers crossed that when he stirs I will be able to take him to bed, feed him there and he will stay asleep. But he hasn't had any dinner because my mum came over unexpectedly and I haven't started it yet, so the daytime routine seems to be the first thing I need to fix.

Aw Bertie. We'll hold your hand (metaphorically speaking).

Sorry about the baths. That's difficult. Don't suppose you've tried getting in with him youself, or would that be too difficult? How about some new bath toys.

Goodness, I'm good at thinking of things to try for other people. Useless for myself .

Will have a think overnight and report back!

Thanks confused. I have read GF when I had DD and I am a fan of routines although not really so strict as GF.

Our day normally goes like this

8am wake
8.30 Breakfast
10am DS- BF DD snack
We usually go out to toddler group or similar
12 lunch
DS will normally sleep on the way home in buggy or car.
DD has just stopped naps in past month
2pm DS- BF DD snack
Play at home or out for walk DS will nap if in buggy.
5pm Dinner
6pm bath
6.30 DD story/bed DS- Bf/bed
DS will usually wake from 45mins-2hours after he goes to sleep. DH will try to settle or I will give him another feed.
2am the last few night DS has woken and I have feed him and put him back down in his cot.
5.30 DS wakes and has morning feed and then comes in with us and we sleep till 8am

This has been the pattern the last few nights but before Christmas when he was in our room he was waking every 2-3 hours and I was trying to space out feeds but ended up feeding 3-4 times in the night.

Hmmmm speak of the devil he has just woken. Its 45 minutes since he went to sleep. DH has just gone up to try to settle him. I think we are going to try DH going up leave for 10 mins, DH going up leave for 10 mins then I feed if he is still awake. What do you think???? I really need to get the book!