What do you do when sleep training hasn’t worked?

[Nosleep2021]

DS is just awful. We are lucky to get 2/3 hours at the start of the night, wakes, then he refuses to go back in his cot. He isn’t hungry or anything - milk is offered and refused.

Since what he wants is to be picked up the sleep methods like Ferber don’t work.

I never thought I’d do CIO but I just can’t carry on like this. I’m depressed because of lack of sleep.

Herc, I posted asking about CIO, and as often happens, the thread turned into a general chat about sleep with commiserations from many posters which actually is very helpful when you’re in the depths of despair at 3am.

You know what isn’t helpful is pissy little posts like yours. I will post when and how I see fit, thank you. What a bossy, petulant little post

Can he sleep without being held in the middle of your bed as a general rule?

@Nosleep2021

I've always been so so against CIO, and up to about 3 minutes before reading this thread if anyone had asked me I'd have said absolutely not, sleep training is horrid... but your thread has converted me, absolutely fucking do it you're beyond sleep deprived and it has to be done. I really really really hope it works for you, and I'm so sorry you've been struggling so long, it sounds just awful. Xx

@Geneticsbunny

I think you should LTB. He sounds like a twat.

(Obviously not real advice but hoping it might make you smile).

All things shall pass (eventually).

LTB 🤣 I dunno why this cracked me up but thanks for the laugh

If anyone is being bossy and petulant it's you.

You asked for advice, rebuked or rebuffed most of it and are now being rude to people trying to help you.

Fwiw I did CIO and it worked in 2 nights. I hope you find something that works.

Mine were good sleepers and the only things I did consistently were fill them with porridge at bed time, encourage reliance on blankets and teddies, never lift them out on waking and never ever ever brought them into our bed. I also wasn't afraid to let them cry tbh. Now 19 and 16 and all bonded well enough.
It's you or him and you need to be functional.
Good luck.

Herc, you know you could have said that at the start!

I can assure you I’m neither being bossy or petulant and the ‘no that’s you’ responses belong in the playground, they really do. I know I should just leave it but bossily being told not to post unless my post meets your approval has really got on my nerves, given I’m having a really difficult time, I’ve benefited hugely from the support - from so many warm, friendly and empathetic messages - then you read one that crossly states ‘don’t post UNLESS’ and it takes all that away.

DS woke at 640, his first nap was at 1240 (I know that’s later than ideal) but he then slept for two and a half hours, ideally wanted him in bed at 7 but it was a little later - around 735. Fingers crossed for a better night! It has to happen sometimes

I have emailed a sleep consultant, as I suspected it really is out of our price range at the moment but if things are still bad in a couple of months I’ll revisit it.

@Nosleep2021 nap was ideal today! How did he go to sleep?

He went to sleep himself. I was there and had my hand on his back but he fell asleep himself.

The only thing is that he has not eaten much today. I did give him an 8oz bottle to try to compensate but it’s definitely been a day where dinner has been thrown / worn not eaten.

I've had two dreadful sleepers, and feel for you so much. I remember just how frustrating it was when people suggested things - incredibly well meaning - that were such basic sleep hygiene that I just wanted to scream "I'm 18months into this shitshow, or course I've fucking tried it!"

Only two suggestions from me:

• magnesium. Your son is too young for supplements I think, but you can get a junior body lotion that has enough magnesium that it is absorbed. When my 3yo stopped sleeping (again) I started him on evening supplements and within three nights he was sleeping all night - and has continued to do so. Only anecdotal but worth trying?
• Kerry of Care it Out sleep consultants saved us twice. I only ever did the one off phone conversation but she got DS2 sleeping through for the first time, then helped us get back to that after illness. She is honest and pragmatic, (politely and kindly) turning down our business twice before because she didn't think it was the right time to help - just out of a hospital stay, and trying to night wean.

I really really hope you have a better night.

Then do. This is crazy. Let him fall asleep, wake, CIO. You don’t need anyone’s permission. Just do it. You can’t carry on like this. I feel desperately sorry for you.

We had some truly awful times with DC1, where just like you describe he'd wake at midnight (or before) and we just couldn't get him back to sleep for hours. DC1's sleep magically fixed itself over about 6 weeks starting from about 15 months, when teething paused. (By magically I mean he went from up for hours and us not being able to settle him to sleeping through). Obviously it's not always that simple, but have you tried maxing out painkillers to see if teething pain is at least part of the problem?

I know you are against shift sleeping, but with hindsight it's something we should have done more of to get us through difficult patches.

[quote PaddleBoardingMomma]@Nosleep2021

I've always been so so against CIO, and up to about 3 minutes before reading this thread if anyone had asked me I'd have said absolutely not, sleep training is horrid... but your thread has converted me, absolutely fucking do it you're beyond sleep deprived and it has to be done. I really really really hope it works for you, and I'm so sorry you've been struggling so long, it sounds just awful. Xx[/quote]
What Paddle said - much more eloquently than me!

This is who we used :
sleepdreamsbaby.com/services/
In case its more affordable. I viewed it as cheaper than divorce... Which is where we'd have been otherwise.

From what you've said about your routine I would think imo your ds is probably over tired. 6hrs is too long a wake window before the first nap. And tbh 5hrs is too long before bedtime. That's without even taking into account the broken sleep. I would say go for 2 shorter naps and an earlier bedtime. He goes to sleep easy at bedtime because he's over ready and his sleep drivers are highest then. But I would bet he's not truly able to settle on his own. He wakes after a few hours because he's had a top up, his body hormones are telling him to wake, it's natural to go into lighter sleep at that time, plus a sleep debt will lead the body to release stress hormones. Then he can't get back off. This is what I've read / been told / picked up.

Big solidarity from me, I'm currently trying to get my 7yo to go to sleep, she's always been a crap sleeper but has been helped over the yrs by various things. Saying this in hope I don't come over like I think I know it all.

Not read the full thread but a sleep consultant we used said about 80% of her cases were babies who suffered with silent reflux and struggled with sleep.

Since your DS is over 1 you can buy gaviscon over the counter and give him
a dose with milk feeds for a few days and before bed - see if that helps. You can add to the bottle or dissolve in a bit of water and syringe it. Be warned it can cause constipation so we gave ellas kitchen prune pouches which helped plus the usual pear etc

Ok I have had two terrible sleepers (now 9 and 7 and still aren’t great!). Honestly, you’ll get every ‘tip’ under the sun on this thread but it about drove me demented in itself just trying and failing all the weird and crazy suggestions people used to give me when my boys were babies/toddlers! And I also was not convinced a sleep consultant would suggest anything I hadn’t already been advised of/tried!

In the end, I just abandoned all the theories/tips/routines that ‘must be followed’ and asked myself what I needed to get through the day/night. Mentally, I realised I found it was much more difficult to cope with my sleep deprivation when I hadn’t got out for some fresh air that day. I also discovered daytime napping when DSs were napping (not solution for every day though!). DH and I also took turns at the night shift (not split but whole night!). I still woke up when they cried but at least I didn’t actually have to get up! I also spoke to my GP as I was concerned about my reaction to the sleep deprivation. I asked my work to temporarily reduce my hours-we we’re lucky I could afford to do that. All those thing ha helped me cope a bit better.

To be honest with you the only thing that has really helped is time-as they’ve got older, they have got better at sleeping through the night. But they were both up through night most nights until they were almost 2! We realised that they just don’t need as much sleep as some other kids did/do so we found they would sleep though if bedtime was later -day 8/8:30 (still up at 6 though but at least not up through the night).

Honestly if you’re at your wits end, definitely try CIO. And don’t listen to anyone else apart from yourself and you DH to decide what’s best for you and your family. I’ve said it before and will say it again, sleep deprivation is a form of torture. Hoping you will be through the worst of this soon. X

OP you sound very measured considering sleep deprivation is a form of torture. right now your experience almost idetically describes my LO. Please update us if you ever do try CIO or a consultant. I would love your insight!

OP do the CIO. You need to sleep. He will not remember a few days of not getting what he wants and will be all the better for it.

Hey OP how did last night go?
By the sound of your day yesterday
'DS woke at 640, his first nap was at 1240 (I know that’s later than ideal) but he then slept for two and a half hours, ideally wanted him in bed at 7 but it was a little later - around 735.?'
Those wake times are way way beyond what he can handle at 12mo and if I had pushed my son to stay awake that long (and even now at 17mo) he would have been a wreck to deal with in the day and I'd be expecting a rocky night.

I think before CIO (and I'm not against it) you need to make sure he is well rested and has age appropriate wake windows for a few weeks. It's not fair on him and CIO possibly won't work if he is full of adrenaline.

At 12mo I'd say he needs 2 naps. If waking at 6.30am I'd try a nap at 9ish for 30mins then big nap from 1pm-2.30/3pm. Bed at 7pm.

I've been where you are. Our DC used to settle in their own cot for bedtime but would always wake before we came up to bed and never settle back again. Didn't have the energy or patience to try any kind of sleep training as just too knackered. DC wanted to sleep on us at all times so we couldn't move or sleep properly, also did the whole jumping on us/kicking us in the back/pushing their head into our armpit/spine all night. Eventually we were able to just start moving them away in their sleep so we had 2-3 inches of our own personal space at night, enough to sleep OK if not particularly comfortably. Couple of years on.... Still ending up in our bed every night (but now at 4-5am rather than 11pm!)! No words of wisdom but hope this phase passes for you soon! Xx

@EL1984 - I agree with you. I did go for a pram walk in the morning and I thought he’d nod off but he didn’t. FOMO probably!

Last night wasn’t as bad. Woke at 10 but I did get him back down in his cot (woo hoo) but then he woke at 12 and was hungry. Had a bottle and then kept squirming and kicking. I went to the toilet, when I came back he’d fallen asleep in the warm bit of the bed id originally been lying in. He actually slept reasonably well then (I think he just had to give in to tiredness!) although he woke me a few times, then woke at 730.

This is where naps are tricky. I will try for two one hour naps, one 1030-1130 and one 230-330. But sometimes if he refuses to go down for the morning one it turns into a long afternoon one, which is what happened yesterday.

Of course I know this phases passes but seeing people actually saying it passes has given me hope it will pass … if that makes sense!

I don’t think I could do CIO as I’m too soft.

Hey, just saw your post. Glad you're feeling better and more positive. I wonder if it's just a nap transition throwing everything out? My ds also 12 months definitely needs two naps but at nursery they can't get him down in the morning so he has 1. There have been occasions where I did his first nap before taking him in when schedules allowed and he then refused to nap fir the entire rest of the day! So the best compromise is just one nap in the middle of the day. It can either make him sleep better or loads worse at night. There seems no rhyme or reason to it. Hopefully in a couple of months he'll actually be ready for one nap and it will settle down a bit? @fatedestiny gave me some great advice on our nap situation here. She said to keep going with the two naps on all non-nursery days to try and stop too much overtiredness. If he wakes late in the morning, which often happens after a nursery day as he catches up at night, to cut the morning nap short.

It's really tough having no control over what happens at nursery and seeing the updates on the app and just thinking how overtired he is and how cranky he'll be when I get him home.

@Nosleep2021 if he nods back off in the warm part of the bed, could you try a hot water bottle or one of the microwave hotties to make the sheets warm for him?

That sounds like a great improvement OP, would you try for a 30 min nap now then a larger nap later on?