What do you do when sleep training hasn’t worked?

[Nosleep2021]

DS is just awful. We are lucky to get 2/3 hours at the start of the night, wakes, then he refuses to go back in his cot. He isn’t hungry or anything - milk is offered and refused.

Since what he wants is to be picked up the sleep methods like Ferber don’t work.

I never thought I’d do CIO but I just can’t carry on like this. I’m depressed because of lack of sleep.

@cheeseismydownfall

The fact he falls asleep easily at bedtime is irrelevant. The process of going back to sleep after a brief night waking is a totally different skill which he needs to learn.

The desperation you are feeling is absolutely understandable and your current situation is unsustainable. You need to forget the utter shit that you have doubtless been brainwashed with about gentle parenting (been there, have a dozen tshirts) and give yourself permission to recognise that both you and your baby urgently need sleep, and that achieving this is likely to avoid a degree of distress for both of you. I would strongly suggest CIO, with or without checking at intervals (personally I think the regular checks are for the sake of the parent and actually more confusing for the baby).

I was ready to put our son up for adoption at 10 months old because I was utterly broken down by sleep deprivation. CIO worked within 3 nights and I actually feel more guilt for the fact I didn't do it sooner. DS is now 14, and I can comfortably confirm he had no ill effects (in fact, he was immeasurably happier once sleeping better) but the months of no sleep took me lo get to recover from.

I completely agree with this. You need to prioritise getting some sleep orange impossible to function without it.

This was me 2 months ago with DD2. Big hugs to you.

I never thought I could do sleep training (my first was such an easy baby and I was so staunchly against it), but after a year of only 1-2hrs of sleep at a time and a baby that never wanted to be put down I couldn't take anymore.

Same as you. Day naps didn't make a difference. What did make a difference was making sure she was tired enough for bedtime. So waking her up from her nap no later than 2:30pm.

What I did:
When she woke for the 5th time in the night (1:30am) my husband decided it was time to sleep train. Right then. Right there. No prepping, no reading sleep training books etc. He tried picking her up and putting her down. She just got really pissed off. After 2hrs we just left her to cry in her cot in her room. I think this is called extinction. It was awful but she eventually fell asleep.

The next night I just made sure she'd had lots to eat and drink before bed. Then we just left her and didn't go in again. Awful. But like you I was desperate. I slept downstairs so I couldn't hear her. The first few nights were heartbreaking. But it didn't take long for her to be sleeping for about 7 hour stretches (she'd wake and then cry for about 3 mins, then put herself back to sleep). Maybe two weeks before she slept through the night.

She wakes for the day at 5am though. I don't mind. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.

She's much happier, I'm much happier. The day looks brighter. She still.

Best of luck

I have now RTFT. Do CIO. The evidence about sleep training is not good quality at all - it's mostly stuff about terrible orphanages where children were left all the time. (And Ockwell-Smith has no relevant qualifications - I have no idea why people worship her.)

What there is good quality evidence about is that sleep deprivation makes you ill (and actually can eventually kill you). You being ill from lack of sleep is worse for your baby than being left to cry. In your situation, CIO is in the best interests of your baby.

@110APiccadilly

I have now RTFT. Do CIO. The evidence about sleep training is not good quality at all - it's mostly stuff about terrible orphanages where children were left all the time. (And Ockwell-Smith has no relevant qualifications - I have no idea why people worship her.)

What there is good quality evidence about is that sleep deprivation makes you ill (and actually can eventually kill you). You being ill from lack of sleep is worse for your baby than being left to cry. In your situation, CIO is in the best interests of your baby.

Agree wholeheartedly with this.

Why will you not speak to your GP? He could be uncomfortable etc which is why he won't lay down in his cot.

You have my sympathy but please remember this is a tiny baby you brought into the world. He's clearly having a hard time to.

I've been there. Up at 11pm then not back to sleep until 5 then up for work at 6.

I thought I'd tried everything but in reality I'd tried a bit of everything then gave up when I didn't see results as I was exhausted.

What worked. Routine and self settling. I didn't stick to set times but I did stick to the sequence/order. My wee one didn't nap during the day unless we were in the car/pram. Her main issue is she couldn't self settle. Every night we rocked her to sleep kicking and screaming so she was so frazzled going to bed.

I don't know what the method was called but I put her down awake and sat next to the cot. She'd stand up and scream and I'd repeat the same phrase 'sleepy time' first night I'd lay her back down after 5 min intervals. After 2 hours she didn't get back up and I got out the room. Every night I left her a bit longer so maybe 10 minutes intervals but I'm still in the room reassuring her and know there's no harm. The time spent in the room gradually got less and she learned to self settle which then meant when she woke through the night she could get herself back over.

It took me 3 weeks and I did it myself. I basically just didn't eat dinner for 3 weeks which was a small price to pay. I didn't get my husband involved as I know we have different thresholds and I would have been questioning if yet another technique didn't work. I think the issue was we didn't work cos we were so tired.

It changed our life however we've had to repeat the process a few times due to house move and holidays.

Really hope you find something that helps. We now have a baby and the 3 year old is still worse but no where near as bad.

Other thing I'd say and I know you're reluctant to involve sleep consultant (I didn't) but my friend did. She had similar issues with sleep and sleep consultant analysed her day and made simple changes and it was night and day for her.

She sent me all the bumph and I pretty much just copied it and it worked.

I feel for you that's a horrendous sleeping pattern.
I would speak to HV or GP though as they can refer to things like sleep clinic if needs be and can help ruoe out physical causes. With my DD she was a bit like this and she has a non IGE dairy allergy Autism.
What helped us (and it sounds like you've probably tried this) was cutting dairy and soya and making day times much more predictable and routine, plenty of outside time every day for melatonin boost. Some families we were going through this with also were prescribed melatonin but our DD didnt need that in the end.
Hope things start to feel less relentless soon.

*non IGE dairy allergy and autism

He’s not that tiny he is over a year old.

No, I’m pretty sure there’s no physical reason - I mean possibly teeth. But remember he goes to sleep 7 ish to 10 ish no problem at all, little dream.

He’s in the habit of waking up (and he cries all right)

See when I had a baby I expected disturbed nights and early starts but I really have never read about babies who refuse to sleep when put down.

he goes to sleep 7 ish to 10 ish no problem at all, little dream.

He’s in the habit of waking up (and he cries all right)

Have you tried disturbing him slightly just before that natural wake-up time?

Sounds like he’s satisfying his need for sleep with 4x 45-min cycles, then awake for the same, then down again for the same. I imagine he’s then up for the same 4 hours and needs a nap, rinse and repeat?

You do need a sleep consultant. If your DH can’t or won’t help out at nights, you need another person outside of yourself to fix it. Because you’re exhausted and cannot do this alone.

I really have never read about babies who refuse to sleep when put down.

It’s depressingly common. But survivors of this bit don’t tend to talk too much about it because of being exhausted and grouchy while going through it and having no energy for well-meaning advice, or having come out the other side and no desire to relive it and honestly no fucking idea what the solution was in the end other than time!

I got through but I also got pregnant again and my husband eventually stepped up equally to help. Friends hired sleep consultants all with great success - but you do have to be willing and open to advice so that you’re prepared to believe it will work.

I’ve read through the whole thread and I can see that you’re absolutely at your wits end, we’re giving you all sorts of suggestions but you’ve tried most of them, or are not prepared to try one or two - which is perfectly reasonable. What you need to do is take time to reflect on what’s actually happening, and what’s happened in the past. Then look for patterns.
TBH, if I were you, I’d make a decision to let him CIO and give it, say, a week. Discuss with your dp exactly what’s going to happen before you start. Your baby will not come to any harm by crying himself to sleep a few times, but he may well suffer from continuous broken nights sleep -as you clearly are! One thing I have noticed is you say he ‘won’t go back down’ several times. I’m assuming you’re picking him up out of his cot? This is what you need to stop doing as much as possible. He’s learned that by crying he gets to be picked up, which is naturally what he wants. This is his sleep pattern and it needs to be broken. You can only do that by not picking him up out of his cot. It’s tough, but doable. Good luck and take care x

It's a fucking con isn't it. It's not just getting them to sleep it's getting them to sleep in any way that allows you any.
Not going to offer advice re: baby sleep, but I'd suggest discussing with GP whether you can have a short course of sleeping tablets, book in with your partner when you can have a night where you aren't responsible for baby, put ear plugs in, go as far away from hik as you can in the house and actually get some sleep. It's a physiological need and you're right that its so hard when you know they're going to wake up in x minutes and that feeling of having just gone off and being wrenched awake is hell.
So occasionally have a drugged up night off.

Seems the options you are wanting to consider are:

1 - continuing as you are - desperate and probably making yourself ill

2 - trying CIO

I’m unsure why a sleep consultant is off the table - that would seem to me to be a great idea to have some personalised support.

Personally I think you need a night in a hotel to sleep undisturbed for a solid 10 hours and then make decisions when you’re more able to.

Why would his routine disappear on Tuesday?

I've had 2 in nursery and they both have routines. We basically followed nursery's pattern even on weekends.

The only change is that on Sundays we all get into bed together at 7am and have tea / milk there until breakfast at 8.

I would say, you're exhausted and it sounds like all that is stopping you doing CIO is your partner.

You need some sleep, book 2 nights in a premier inn and go away by yourself to get some. Let him have 2 nights of what you're dealing with.

Then you can have this conversation again. You'll be more rested and can perhaps see what changes you both need to make.

I'd also suggest NOT picking him up when he cries. When we did controlled crying, I'd put them on their backs and rub tummies before leaving the room for a set amount of time. I gradually increased intervals to 10 mins and then just stuck to that while they cried.

The number 1 rule though was to not pick them up.

Ds1 was a horrendous sleeper - sleep deprivation is torture and has such a profound effect on your physical and mental health. I used to hate the night times because it was just a constant battle to get some sleep. Ds1 hated co sleeping too so that was not an answer for us.

What my health visitor recommended was the book 'teach your child to sleep'. I know you have read lots of books but I read every book I could find and this was by far the best.

It sets out practical solutions with step be step instructions and you use the flow charts, factual information and your own personal choices to chose the best method.

There is no 'preaching' and no 'one size fits all'.

We selected the gradual withdrawal/ gradual retreat method.

It was hard work, took a couple of months but was far better than what we were doing before.

The problem with sleep problems are that 1. You need energy to deal with them and 2. The child has got into a well entrenched habit.

Once we had tackled the problem Ds1 went from 1 to 2 hourly wake ups and often not actually going back to sleep to sleeping 12 hours a night.

If I was you I would 100% do CIO
And I would start tonight. You cannot carry on like this. We did it with both our girls and it was the right thing for our family. Your health and wellness is really
Important if you want to be able to function.

I would never ever have let DD cry it out and she was a terrible sleeper.

We tried a variety of things

Routine - bath, story or song in bed, milk (in bed), cuddle to sleep

Black out blinds

Baby sleeping bag (this helped a lot cause couldn't kick off sheets)

toddler bed instead of cot (she was out the cot at 15 months)

night light

Also giving supper, not just milk, to fill her up

Hi op, I don't have any advice on the baby sleep as we've not had this issue. We've had plenty of other issues and my ds is also 12 months and never slept through. There's various things we've tried and have helped to a degree but no magic fixes. I shan't suggest anything as it's probably already been mentioned in the thread. I just wanted to offer some solidarity and say that I hope it improves for you soon.

If you're at the point of considering cry it out could you and your partner both take a night in a hotel to sleep whilst the other stays at home with baby? It might help you both to formulate a plan of action on a bit of proper rest? Maybe even take a sleeping tablet so you don't lie awake worrying? It's impossible to think straight when you're flat out exhausted. He might cry all night with dad but he's being held by someone who cares, he'll be fine even if doesn't sleep much.

I really hope the situation improves for you and you find a manageable way to get everyone some sleep.

You shouldn’t need to persuade your OH, btw.

He should be actively exhausted too and looking for a solution that doesn’t involve you being the one to be awake at night.

Thanks. Yeah it’s definitely exhausting. Stuff like sleeping bags and black out blinds is like the white noise, it’s fairly basic stuff that you’d probably try before other stuff. I’ve tried waking up at 930 and offering a bottle but he still wakes an hour later. And yy to you having to have the energy to deal with it.

That’s why the sleep consultant idea is not terrible. An outsider’s point of view on your individual situation- not a generic solution from a book - is very valuable. It’s also good for sceptical partners who tend to trust outside opinions of experts when they hear them, this being more likely to get on board And you get some solidarity and an outsider to reinforce why this is a team effort.

We had a plan from Calm and Bright Sleep support which really worked for us as I couldn't go on. I also had some WhatsApp support from them which really helped. They are on insta.
I also like Just Chill Mama on insta who has a range of methods.

Yeah and then it doesn’t work and you’ve wasted £400