What do you do when sleep training hasn’t worked?

[Nosleep2021]

DS is just awful. We are lucky to get 2/3 hours at the start of the night, wakes, then he refuses to go back in his cot. He isn’t hungry or anything - milk is offered and refused.

Since what he wants is to be picked up the sleep methods like Ferber don’t work.

I never thought I’d do CIO but I just can’t carry on like this. I’m depressed because of lack of sleep.

Ok so what does alone mean? You leave him babbling in a cot and he falls asleep eventually? And that is true of naps as well?

So it isn’t the holy grail. Both of my kids needed me in their room as they fell asleep for many months but with no engagement and did eventually sleep through the night. I did very gentle sleep training over many months to separate out each issue. So first falling asleep, then staying asleep; then staying asleep in the cot. Then moving to his own room. So really step by step with not that many tears involved. And I tweaked it to the child’s personality. I have one sensitive clingy child who will frankly given a chance still sleep on top of me and he’s in double digits. But he obviously goes to sleep on his own and stays asleep. And a much more independent but much more stubborn younger child who needed different sort of sleep training.

No I'm not saying carry on with something that doesn't work, but you've clearly tried quite a few things, say 4 different things at 3 weeks each is 12 weeks. That's a huge difference in development, 9 months compared to 12 moths.

Sorry if you think I'm having a go, I'm really not. There is no magic wand. A day time nap routine will likely help.

If your mental and ohysical state is so bad from lack of sleep that you would consider foster care then yes i think you should do cry it out. If he is getting love, attention and secure attachment during the day then one or two nights of crying - and he won't cry all night - is NOT going to permanently damage him. But having a desperate/unable to function/anxious mother will damage him. When you say ferber didn't work as he wsnted to be picked up what do you mean? I did controlled crying which worked quickly but my son was never comforted by me going in to soothe him, it always made him more upset, so he probably would have cried less if I'd just done cry it out, but i couldn't bear to. I'm aware that the going in to soothe him was actually for me more than him though.

Work with a sleep consultant. The moral support can be brilliant.

Are you a single mum?

So it sounds like he does sleep but on you, constantly kicking and seeking physical reassurance so you don’t get any sleep. Does that sound about right?

Lols yeah I’ve tried white noise!

Honestly Herc I know you are trying to help but after over a year of hardly any sleep I have tried the more obvious solutions!

There’s nothing that wakes him, he just sort of wakes all the time. He’s currently trying to climb up the bed and crying because he is tired.

I'm out, last time I offer any advice on here. Good luck.

Do whatever you can to facilitate sleep- for us that was co-sleeping

The waking up is because he’s come to the natural end of his sleep cycle and doesn’t know how to connect to the next one.

And no one taught babies that when they are tired if they sleep, they will magically feel better. So in some ways my entire sleep training was sort of centred around them seeing sleep and bed as a good place to be in the absence of common sense in small kids.

I know but while he might sleep in co sleeping I don’t. I hate it. I’m sorry - I know MN loves it but it’s my idea of torture. And he isn’t a tiny floppy helpless thing - he’s a just starting to walk, kicking, squirming, punching, head butting thug I am bed sharing with. It’s hell, it really is.

Ok so it sounds like you need to recreate the security he gets from bed sharing while having some space for yourself. Again this will depend on his personality and likes and dislikes (which is why I am not into ‘methods’ per se).

You could also try lying on your back propped up on pillows with him in the crook of your arm?

I do get it op, honestly, I haven't had an undisturbed night's sleep in 6 years. If your baby needs you to sleep then it's really, really hard both physically and mentally. I still feel really touched out from having one of both kids physically on me every minute that I'm not at work, it's draining.

Honestly the best advice I can give you is to do what gets you sleep. If he needs you to sleep then find a bed sharing position you can tolerate that allows him the contact with you. Sleep in underwear only so there is lots of skin available for him to feel. Spoon him, hold his hand, crook of your arm, head on your shoulder, whatever you can manage. Set the bed up so it works, bed guard etc. get DP to sleep elsewhere and tag in if DS will tolerate it.

I tried all the sleep training, paid for sleep consultants etc I got nowhere. It doesn't work for everyone. You can only parent the baby you've got, not the hypothetical "drowsy but awake" baby in the books. You get through it, everything is a phase with young children and in 6 months it will all be different. Do whatever you can just to get through it.

Right. You've tried everything.

Have you tried cry it out?

Has anyone other than you yourself had him overnight?

Send him away to granny's for the night. 9r leave his dad with him at home and get yourself some decent sleep for the night.

He'll get used to you not being there and you'll get some sleep.

Personally, I don't think you can "fix" a child's sleep. Some kids sleep and some don't. Like adults really. But smaller.

Oops, meant to say book yourself into a hotel for the night while dad deals with him.

OP, you need professional help.

Please, please find yourself a good sleep consultant. You can’t fix this yourself when you don’t have any reserves.

There’s no granny to have him.

The fact he falls asleep easily at bedtime is irrelevant. The process of going back to sleep after a brief night waking is a totally different skill which he needs to learn.

The desperation you are feeling is absolutely understandable and your current situation is unsustainable. You need to forget the utter shit that you have doubtless been brainwashed with about gentle parenting (been there, have a dozen tshirts) and give yourself permission to recognise that both you and your baby urgently need sleep, and that achieving this is likely to avoid a degree of distress for both of you. I would strongly suggest CIO, with or without checking at intervals (personally I think the regular checks are for the sake of the parent and actually more confusing for the baby).

I was ready to put our son up for adoption at 10 months old because I was utterly broken down by sleep deprivation. CIO worked within 3 nights and I actually feel more guilt for the fact I didn't do it sooner. DS is now 14, and I can comfortably confirm he had no ill effects (in fact, he was immeasurably happier once sleeping better) but the months of no sleep took me lo get to recover from.

To be honest I am feeling horrible guilt for the fact he must be absolutely beyond exhausted.

Hire a sleep consultant. I did that when my boy was 14mths old, best thing ever. It took all the guess work out of it, I just did what she told me to do.

I used Goodnight Guidance (they have a Facebook page) and all of it was done remotely so doesn't matter where you're based. He was sleeping through within a week.

He's now 3 and sleeps 14 hours a night minimum.

I know you say you’ve tried everything in the last 12 months but during that time he has also changed about a million times over. If you tried white noise when he was 4 months old it doesn’t mean it won’t work now. And if you tried doing a daytime nap routine at 8 months and it didn’t work maybe it was because he was teething. Etc etc.

I know venting can be cathartic but I’m not sure how people can help you if you won’t take on board some suggestions. Or if you don’t want suggestions then don’t ask for help, just say that you want to vent, that’s fine too.

Where is your sons dad in all of this?

Also you do sound a bit like you’re convinced that nothing will work with your child. Unless there are medical issues going on that you haven’t mentioned, something will work. Eventually.

Don't feel guilty. This is not your fault - you have done your very best based on the information you have. The trouble is that that baby advice is a multi million pound industry that is fuelled by parental doubt and has to constantly reinvent itself in order to sustain the machine. Right now the trend is for extreme baby-centred parenting. Obviously there is some good stuff in among all the bullshit and there are many practices that our parents and grandparents followed that are probably best left in the past. But honestly, martyring yourself for the impossible ideal that your baby will never cry is patently absurd, and between now and your DS turning 18 there are many, many times when you will face his upset while doing what you know is for the best. You might as well get used to it

I still do use white noise etc.

I know venting can be cathartic but I’m not sure how people can help you if you won’t take on board some suggestions

This is one of the things I do find really baffling and tbh sometimes a bit stressful about MN. I’ve been battling with lack of sleep for a long time and I’m no stranger either to the sleep board or to sleep advice generally. I have an array of books about sleep and as I’ve said, I’ve read on here. If I’ve tried something, and it’s either made no discernible difference, saying so does not mean I’m refusing to take on board suggestions.

I read a bit from Lucy Wolfe that described DS to a T - but when it came to implementing the advice, DS was having none of it. That doesn’t mean Lucy Wolfe gives bad advice and I’m sure with other babies that would have worked brilliantly but here it just didn’t - no personal slight on here (or Sarah ockwell smith, or Tracey Hogg, or even Gina ford …)

@Newnews

Also you do sound a bit like you’re convinced that nothing will work with your child. Unless there are medical issues going on that you haven’t mentioned, something will work. Eventually.

Well yeah - he can’t stay awake forever - hence why I am considering leaving him to it.

@Nosleep2021
Just chill mama changed my life.
Sleep consultant on Instagram. Gives loads of free advise or paid one to one apppintments.