No Cry Sleep Solution - anyone want to join in, or tips from your experiences with it?

[TurtlesMama]

My 9 mo dd is a bad sleeper. We had a brief lovely period of all night sleep between 3 & 4 mths and it has been downhill from there! She does self settle occasionally but otherwise its cuddles/rocking and she will only fall asleep with me or dh in the room. I refuse to try cc/CIO and having spent a miserable 10 days doing pupd from the baby whisperer (cue a lot of screaming from her for hours at night and a very miserable mama too) have decided to try the no cry sleep solution by Elizabeth Pantley. Briefly dabbled in it when she was tiny to help with naps, but this time I'm doing it properly, sleep logs, sleep plan and all

Is there anyone else out there also interested in giving it a go? It would be great to have a support thread going - all my RL baby friends allegedly have babies who sleep lol so a bit of help would make all the difference!

Thanks :-)

[cakebaby]

Hi all. Good to hear some are making progress at least. We have had mixed nights, I think largely due to our messed up feeding! Ds feeds become shorter with each waking which consequently comes round quicker as he is hungry. He clamps his mouth shut when he's had very little, I've tried waking him fully to feed which backfired spectacularly as he was awake for 'the day' at 330am. By 4am he's waking hourly and when we get up at 7 (I've given up by then) he's not hungry til about 10. He then cluster feeds til noon & naps for 3 hrs pm. I think his feeding is 12 hrs or so out and am trying to figure out how to fix it

[KittyOSullivanKrauss]

Arrghh! The Mummy's-hair-as-comfort-object. Cute but maddening. DS did this too Amanda . He did form an attachment to his teddy eventually though and wouldn't be without him at bedtime now. DD has a teddy but she's not especially attached to it yet (I think she's too young). She also likes my hair but trying not to indulge her as often...

The naps thing: Much as I love Mrs Pantley, I think she's got correlation and cause mixed up here. DS was a horrible napper, and I drove myself mad with it, again I think needlessly. He did start napping better at about 1 but again I think this was developmental. DD is actually a much better napper than DS, but she's pretty much the same as him at night. Naps are hard with DC2, mainly because DC1 often finds that you get a lot of attention from mummy if you repeatedly shout loudly and wake the baby. Ooo, look! Mummy is cross again. What fun . My DS is in school, which makes it easier in some ways but harder in others as DD has to wake up by 3pm, even if she could do with sleeping on a bit.

at your parents cake. I bet you were lying on your front with 10 blankets on you as well (I know I was as a baby, seen the photos!).

The Pantley pull off was the thing I think was most helpful when I was doing NCSS first time round. That and using gradual withdrawal in stages, and recognising that it wasn't a quick fix. Again, still not sure if it was just time that made the biggest difference.

I think someone was asking about how long to shush/pat for? IME the baby will tell you when they're fed up with it!

We've got snot and teething here too so calpol for tonight. She actually wasn't that bad last night considering, but then my expectations are very low....

[KittyOSullivanKrauss]

X posted cake. Isn't your DS about 12 weeks or so? Both mine have had really difficult phases when they were about this small (3-4 months ish), and it often only lasted a week or so before changing again. I'm not sure its the type of thing you can 'fix' at this age, because they change so rapidly. Do whatever gets you the most sleep, honestly.

Having said that, I should not still be up myself at this late hour. Off to bed .

[Helenc19]

Hi everyone, its been a few days since I have had time to check in, I was eager to read that's there had been some success but it doesn't look like it.
We have had very little progress with naps, they are still mostly only 30 minutes long unless I have a nap with him but he still wakes and needs resettling. I do a nap time routine, dark room, white noise but am wondering if the routine needs to be longer, I kept it short so he wouldn't get overtired. What does everyone do for their nap routine and how long does it last?
Night wakeings got a lot better when I pleaded with the gp for some steroid cream for the eczema on his face, it cleared up straight away and he only woke for feeds every 3 hours. But after the 7 day course it came back and he's waking lots again, I'm so tired:( I have gone dairy free which I think is causing the eczema but I think there's more to it so trying to figure out what.
On the plus side he is getting easier to settle at bed time and during the night after feeds after gradually reducing the amount of shushing and patting.

[Liveinthepresent]

Hello everyone how's it going?

Thanks turtle for advice re baby whisperer forum - I have been skulking on there too! It just isn't in the spirit of NCSS. But I think I am ready,to give something a go.
We are still in the settled phase that started at the weekend - got a 3.5 hour stint last night. That is best in weeks!
But I think now DS is so used to the night feeds that I can't see it sorting itself out completely even if this run continues.
I was so exhausted last week I feel much more human now and can see progress.
So after all my negative posts here is what I have managed to achieve since the thread started-
Early bedtime - definitely become normal and do feel like I have got my evenings back - albeit often short.
I have played around,with the order and length of time from last nap - seems to work best to feed at start of bedtime as reducing wind stopping him settling.
We have moved DS into his own room and both DH and I are sleeping better as a result - but I don't know if I could cope with him being in his room if he reverts to hourly waking. Too far to stagger!
I don't think this is anything I have done but he is settling after a feed in the night - apart from a 1 hour blip last night
So - major realisation at the weekend I am no longer rocking !! Started to just hold him and sssh pat in my arms. Trying to resist it even when he is upset.
My hope is next,step will be to put down drowsy and attempt ssh pat. Not sure when I will pluck up courage to try.
Emma have you tried it yet? Anyone else ?

Helen my nap routine is very,quick but consistent - I just say sleepy time over and over , hand him the 'lovey' and cover him with blanket - then say sssh sleepy time lots more. ( and try to resist rocking!) Mind you my DS has been ok at napping for a while - but never napped in cot! The most important thing for us is definitely the timing.

On that note its naptime here so over and out.
Look forward to everyone's updates.

[EmmaLL25]

We have tried for last two nights.

First night fed, moved into cot and he basically cried, rolled around, grabbed at me etc for a miserable 15 minutes while I ssshhh/patted etc. So gave up, fed lying down till almost asleep. He woke after 30 minutes, Dad cuddled back to sleep and he did 4hrs! Then woke every 2/3 until 7.

Second night - I tried to make sure he wasn't almost asleep when we stopped feeding. Moved to cot and no tears but he just rolled about, rubbed his eyes for twenty minutes. Was starting to get upset so I fed lying down again and used pull off method (sounds so wrong!). He then did 3 hrs. Dad cuddled beck t

[EmmaLL25]

Dad cuddled back to sleep. He woke after an hour - think we woke him going to bed. He had an unsettled hour, trying to sleep not managing to. So changed nappy and gave teething powders. Fed again and then he did 4hrs! He then snacked/slept till 8.

So I think there's progress there. Will keep trying the moving into cot - it's a month till Christmas so hopefully that's a lot of time to develop new skill!

[cakebaby]

kitty yes I was also lost under a mountain of blankets on my tum AND they put me outside in my pram IN THE SNOW!! And they try to give me advice!

I'm wondering whether 13 wk old ds is a bit young to be subjected to my sleep coercion at the moment. Open to opinions here. What we have achieved is a clear bedtime routine with a 7pm bedtime. He goes to sleep generally in 30-45 mins & i've used the pantley gentle removal technique with some success. He sometimes stirs & needs resettling but will go 3 hrs, feed, 3 hrs, smaller feed then it deteriorates to 2 hrs, smaller feed, then hourly wake ups with demands of tiny feeds til I give up and get up at 630.

Any ideas how I can extend the hourly wakings from 330am? I can't seem to settle him back to sleep without a quick slurp, a refusal is met with hysterical tears and everyone ends up wide awake!

Maybe I should just go with it for now?

[cakebaby]

Oh just to add, he doesn't nap well during the day and by 7pm is very tired, so tired in fact he is a total nightmare to bf more than 10 mins. I give him a bottle of ebm aswell, I think he could do with filling up a bit more before bed but I don't seem to be able to achieve it

[Liveinthepresent]

Hello all
Emma thanks for update glad you feel optimistic - keep me posted! I am still dithering about when to start.

Cake I don't know what I would do in your shoes but you are doing really well! He is still little! Have you tried DH settling at any of these early wake ups?

[Brugmansia]

We still haven't started anything formal yet. I'm just about over my cold but have a hen do this weekend and DS is staying at my parents. I think I'll try and read a bit more and start next week properly.

One thing I was wondering about is the log that she suggests. It seems to me that a log for one day is not enough. One of the issues I have is it seems there is no real pattern, so a log for a day won't really give an idea of the whole picture. Also, naps are different if we are having a day at home or out and about. I was thinking of doing a log over 3-4 days to help me get a better idea of where any issues may lie. What do you all think? Or is one day enough?

cakebaby, I think your LO is probably a bit little at the moment. I know you were worrying about supposed bad habits, but in my view that idea is nonsense at least for little babies. Things change so fast in the first 6 months and some of the things that concern you now may well just change of their own accord. Around 4-5 months DS was sleeping really badly, waking every hour and then sleeping on me from about 2am onwards. At some point that just changed, the amount he woke was less and when I put him back down after feeding to sleep he would stay asleep. Equally you could exhaust yourself now and it will be fine for a couple of weeks and then something else will change and you'll be back to where you started (eg if you have a 4 month sleep regression).

Having said that, it's still sensible to start thinking about sleep early so you have the tools to hand when maybe you do need them. Also, you will probably then be better placed to notice when things are changing of their own accord and encourage better sleep in a gentle way. As well as the NCSS I'd recommend reading the ISIS website, www.isisonline.org.uk/.

[Brugmansia]

I'd also add, that at the moment DS, who will be 10 months in a few days, generally goes to sleep ok early-mid evening. It was around 7pm and it used to take very little time to get him to sleep by feeding. Feeding to sleep has stopped being so reliable for first getting him to sleep and it's taking longer and often with a combination of rocking too. He generally wakes now every 2-3 hours but has on a few occasions stretched to 4 hours.

Having been a dreadful napper he now is pretty reliable about having a morning nap of an hour around 3-4 hours after waking up in the morning. He will often have an afternoon nap of around the same length. This is more reliable if we are out and he is the pram. If we are having a home day he can be quite resistant to this. He started napping better around 5 months after he started sitting up. I think he was just getting more tired and he started showing much more obvious tired signs than before.

[KittyOSullivanKrauss]

Cake, I agree with Brugmansia. Your DS is still too little for any sleep issues to be behavioural. Things will change of their own accord at this age. I don't really think you get a clear, predictable routine until after 6 months anyway as too much change happens too quickly at your DS's age. I've looked at the ISIS website too, its a good resource.

I'm not quite sure what we're doing at the moment as DD has been very snotty and uncomfortable this week, possibly teeth on the way. I did manage to put her down for a nap without a bf first today though.

I've remembered that when my DS was about 9/10 months I changed the order of his bedtime routine so he had a (very short) book after his bf. I think it was helpful in the long run. I've started trying to do something similar for DD. I've noticed a few with similar aged babies so thought I'd mention it.

Also trying a bit of shush/patting here. Its variable but DD seems more amenable than DS was.

Brugmansia - I think Mrs P's idea about logs was to avoid driving oneself mad with minor details and being able to see bigger picture of improvement. I guess you could try both ways and see how it feels to you?

[cakebaby]

Hi all, thanks for advice. I've decided to just carry on with our bedtime routine, trying to encourage daytime naps and roll with everything else for the meantime, trying not to pick up anymore bad habits! Will still check in here for advice though, it's very reassuring!

[Liveinthepresent]

Morning all just a quick update - I have been a bit scared of posting for fear of jinxing things but we seem to be over the worst for now.
We have settled back into nights typically being a series of 3 ish hour blocks of sleep. Over the weekend DS also managed a 6 hour stint and a 4 - but no idea why these happen!
So it all feels a lot more manageable.
We had been in a really good nap routine too but that went a bit weird yesterday so just have to see how today goes.
So for now I am just going with the new flow and trying to put him down not quite asleep - wimped out on ssh pat etc.
DS has been waking up smiling from naps and in the morning which seems like a real turning point as he is clearly getting enough sleep now.

How is everyone else doing?

[EmmaLL25]

Liveinthepresent that's great news. Long may it continue (and improve!).

We have been teething so few nights of back to 2hrly wake ups (or more frequent) and a spell of awake 4-6 over night Saturday.

I suspended ssshh/pat for a couple nights after we had busy weekend/late bedtimes. He was hard to settle, the earlier bedtime is definitely a help for settling.

Funnily when I've fed to sleep I've not had to do pull off method - he's fed, stopped himself and turned over and gone to sleep!

I've also managed to cuddle him back to sleep early evening rather than OH do it or me feed him. Was quite pleased about that. Still think its easier to feed back to sleep at 3am rather than walking around bedroom ssshing and cuddling him. That's my bad habit to break!

Back to ssshh/pat tonight though.

[TurtlesMama]

Hi all

Great to see so many updates. Sorry have been quiet this week. It's all been pretty tough going without much of a pattern to the night wakings so have been feeling a bit down bout it all to be honest and not really sure where to go from here. She is up several times a night, rarely for less than 30m and we did have one pretty spectacular night of 4.5hrs last week. She will often wake again about 30min later which is just hideous as am just dropping off!!

So we have been doing the 6stage thing for a while but we can't get past stage 1 of putting her down just asleep. Even that takes several goes and she just gets more agitated and awake each time. So have reverted to putting her down properly asleep which is bad I know. So I think I need something where I am putting her down awake initially but just not sure where to start or how to avoid the hysterics we had when we tried pupd a few weeks back. Am also getting fed up of being bitten kicked and climbed on when I rock/cuddle!!

Any tips/ideas on how to start? Was considering doing gradual retreat (the one where you put them down awake and do 3 days next to the cot, backing away gradually til you are out the door on day 10. Just scared to start really as can't cope with more hysterics!!! And she has a very small bedroom so am not sure how to gradually retreat effectively lol. Anyone tried it?

Also really struggling with naps. Some days she is only having 30min tottotal which really is not helping with the over tiredness. So my rough plan is to get her down for nals on time any way I can (ie rocking) and then try self settling at bedtime when she is not so overtired. What do you think? Do I need to be more consistent than that? And what do I do at night? Rock or gradually retreat?

Part of my thinking is that with xmas coming up we are going to be having a few nights at in laws and parents, so don't want to be in the middle of something intense sleep training wise when we are away as I think it would disrupt things. But also can't really see us riding this out for another 3/4 wks til xmas is over, feel like we need to male some progress!!

Sorry for the very me me me post. Am just really struggling and at a loss for what to do next. I just don't know how to break the bad habits without lots of tears!!

Anyway...

Live sounds like you are doing v well, yay!! All the hard work is paying off

cake agree that a break is in order, ds may well sort himself out soon anyway at such a young age. Lots of luck!!

kitty what do you do bout the standing? Dd does it constantly, sometimes crying and sometimes playing. Laying down sometimes worms but often she just jumps up again. She is also gnawing cot so prefer her not to be standing (she has just realised how to detach teething rails grr). Have also started doing book after bottle at bedtime to wake her up lol.

Amanda how are naps? Am struggling to vet 2 in at tired times tbh!

Emma - thanks, we have a lovey on the xmas list now lol. How goes the shhpat?

Helen have you pushed for a paeds referral? I did as felt not getting anywhere with gp on allergy issues - you might have more luck with an expert?

brug yes I also thought that on log, but I think its to stop you going mad lol.

Right off for some me time before the madness starts again...

[Liveinthepresent]

Morning Turtles have to say I think you must have the patience of a Saint as you have been dealing with all this twice as long as me - your DD must be about 10 months now?
It sounds really tough.
I am praying our good run continues until adulthood!! Another decent night - 3+4+3.45 - so he is now normally up once at 11 ish then I go to bed - wakes 3 ish - then sometime between 5-7. This morning I had to wake both him and DD for the nursery run. First time ever - so I actually had managed a shower, tea etc before having to go into the mission of getting them out the door with no meltdowns!
He is hungry at each wake so I feed but put him down (awake!) no trouble resettling.
Obviously I am terrified it won't last and desperate to know how I get from here to a,full nights sleep but I won't complain!! This is bearable!!
Now he is in his own room we have set up our video monitor which is great as I can see him stir and go back off to sleep so I know he is self settling some of the time - he reaches for his 'lovey'.
I have to stop myself watching too much though as otherwise I do not relax for a second in the evening!

So Turtles I have no idea what has changed things for DS and don't think I did much I think it was him!
So am not going to pretend to have any expertise...
If I were you I would definitely see if focussing on naps helps as overtiredness definitely makes it much tougher to settle them.
Have you seen the thread called 'what worked for us' it's about gradual withdrawal - in your shoes I would definitely give it a go but I know how hard it is to brace yourself for the tears ( yours as well as DD!) I think maybe at her age I would just tell myself you need to teach her this skill and some tears are inevitable...as a parent we have to do many things that are good for the DCs even if they don't like it !
Also I read somewhere that you should see a definite improvement within a week so if you made a plan and drafted in some moral and practical support could you try before Christmas and if its too painful you could pause and rethink in January?
That's for what it's worth what I would do.. Failing that I had been tragically fantasising about asking for a,sleep consultant for Christmas!!

How is everyone else?

[Splinters]

Hey all, was just coming on here with the thought of starting such a thread, so am v pleased to find you all here already. This will have to be a quick post with no back-reading as 9mo dd has just woken from her nap after 30 mins. Will sigh loudly and try to catch up later.

So, after a period when dd was about 2.5-4.5 mo of waking just once in the night (we really didn't know how lucky we were), the last few months have seen deterioration to 5-8 wakings a night. DH has finally got involved (had been sleeping so soundly he didn't even realise how often I was up to DD), which has improved our relationship if nothing else.

We've had a pretty good bedtime routine since about 3mo, ever since we realised that dd was screaming all evening because she was super tired. Had been getting harder to put her to bed lately, but once we figured out that letting dd 'work off surplus energy' after her bath was actually just waking her up, we've been doing bath-feed-bed in quick succession and she's regularly asleep by 7pm. Usually sleeps until 10 or 11pm, then the nightly fun begins..

We've been on NCSS about 2 weeks now, but somehow I haven't been able to bring myself to do a 10-day log yet. Last night was a particular outrage. I think the main problem for us is not that she can't fall asleep without sucking (she quite often finishes a feed awake and then drops off) but that she is accustomed to having her little tummy filled up every three hours minimum. I haven't really found EP dealing with this issue -- or have I just missed it in my sleep-deprived fog?

[Splinters]

Should add, our best nights recently have been sth like 11pm - 2am - 5am with a full feed at each. Bearable, so maybe it was overambitious to think I might manage to eliminate one of those (by settling without feeding) for a decent run of sleep? After 1.30 this morning she just re-woke every 45 mins until she got fed properly. And after that, screaming 20 mins after falling asleep on her own in her cot. Should I just resign myself to feeding every 3 hrs and cut my losses?

[Brugmansia]

Well we seem to be in the midst of a rather unsettled period - some good and some bad. We've had some much better nights with DS sleeping for longish stretches either not properly waking or managing to self-settle if he does. On Sunday night he went to sleep at around 7.30 without too much fuss and didn't wake until 3am. There have also been a few nights with 4 hour stretches.

Other days we're back to every 2/3 hours and him being difficult to settle in the first place and then resettle on waking. Last night was particularly bad. Having gone to sleep relatively easily shortly after 7 he woke after about 45 mins and then took 1 1/2 hours to resettle. He was awake again every couple of hours and at 6ish would not resettle until he had a nap at 7.30am. He is now currently asleep for a nap. He has been asleep for over 2 hours, having settled quite easily (although on the boob).

I think last night and today may be explained by teething as he finally seems to actually have a tooth coming through. I'm wondering though if we may be in the middle of a bit of a natural transition period for sleep and if I wait it out things may just get better of their own accord. I'm not sure there is much I can do as a plan at present as I don't feel I really can figure out where we are and where the problems lie. I may just try and get stuck into a log for a few days and see if I can see what's going on.

Anyway, I think for probably the first time in his life I'm going to have to go and wake DS from his nap as he needs his lunch before we go swimming this afternoon.

[EmmaLL25]

We have had a mixed few days. We only had one wake up from midnight to 6am the other night. Since then been more like 2-2.5hr wake ups. I have no clue what makes a difference one day to the next.

We have decided to begin night weaning. I'm going to post separately on bf forum about that.

We are also going to put side back on cot to stop co-sleeping. LO will be in cot away from bed over Christmas so only seems fair to introduce change now. Going to put side back on then gradually move away from bed.

Realised I'm really sad about both. I know in long-term it needs to be done - especially as I'm back to work after Christmas. I'm going to miss him being right next to me. I'm also going to miss how peaceful our evenings are - once we're in bed if LO wakes there are no tears and a quick feed and everyone back to sleep. This is short term (I hope) is going to be replaced by broken sleep, pacing up and down cuddling back to sleep. Trying to get him back in cot (drowsy etc).

I know I need to let go a little bit (or a lot). I'm just sad about it all today.

[KittyOSullivanKrauss]

Emma, sorry you're feeling sad. This may be completely unhelpful, but I remember having a period of cosleeping again in the early mornings when DS was a baby and I had just gone back to work. He was unsettled by the change, plus molars coming through. It was the only thing that helped at the time. Like you though I am concerned about going back to work in the new year, and need to feel I'm doing something. I currently have no idea how I'm going to function.

We have had possibly the worst night we have ever had with both children. I swear it will go down in legend in our household. DS is unwell so was awake multiple times coughing and distressed. DD woke up loads, partly due to the noise her brother was making (4 year olds being very loud.....). Just very thankful DH was at home, he sometimes works away over night. So, too much snot in this house to be making progress at the moment. I'm just continuing trying to settle DD with alternatives to bf when she lets me (shush/pat often works, sometimes need to rock, music & teddy seem helpful). Also made a deal with myself to just focus on the first night waking for now.

Turtles: the standing up thing. Its a bugger. I do try to lie DD down and shush/pat but rarely works tbh. I find that DD needs to be very sleepy when she goes to bed. If she's too awake she gets too excited and then just wants to leap up repeatedly. She then gets upset when I try to put her down and there is angst which does not make for a restful night in the long run. I am betting that parents of children who sleep better are not putting them to bed wide awake and wanting to play, we just have more wakeful babies. So its a fine balance trying to make sure she's sleepy but not totally asleep when I put her down. If she's very sleepy after her bf I sometimes blow in her face to rouse her a little bit, so she settles lying down. Some nights she has surprised me recently by going down quite nicely drowsy but awake - very hit and miss though. With the stages, it may help if you don't take the book too prescriptively. Your stage 2 may only be very very slightly different from stage 1, but if its even slightly different this is going in the right direction. I did gradual withdrawal with DS when he was a toddler (to help him settle in a bed IIRC) and it didn't follow a linear path. I often had to go back a step for a night or two but it was ultimately effective over time. I do think separation anxiety can have a huge influence on sleep at this age as well, so there is also an element of riding it out, they do change. Sorry if that's not more helpful.

No time to comment on anything else currently sorry. Should really be looking after my children (DS playing on my phone, DD in her playpen whilst I MN ).

[Liveinthepresent]

Hello everyone - it's been very quiet on here - is everyone too exhausted to post or given up on the book or maybe babies are finally sleeping?? [hopeful face]

Have been meaning to update for days but been very busy as am sure we all are at this time of year.

We seem to still be in the improving mode - been a few ups and downs with one memorable evening where it took almost 4 hours to settle DS properly - but in the last 10 nights I have had a few 5/6 hour blocks ( though typically i am normally awake as its the evening bit) and even one miracle night when he slept for 8hours and 42 mins straight ... I still haven't idea what causes the fluctuations and how I will reduce the night feeds but to be honest it is so much more manageable I am happy to get by as I am for a while.
The other main change is that he suddenly one evening seemed to stop wanting to be held until asleep and eventually settled ALL BY HIMSELF from awake ! It is very hit and miss but he has done it three times now so I really feel encouraged by this.

I know some of you with older babies may caution me not be too optimistic but this has convinced me that much of the improvement must be developmental as I don't feel I have done much apart from try not to create more bad habits. Would love to have a crystal ball to tell me whether he will eventually learn to STTN on his own.

Now trying to decide whether to try to dreamfeed before his first wake up - and see what that does but he often wakes around 11 -12 anyway so not sure.

[Liveinthepresent]

It's me again I intended to post immediately after the other update but time ran away with me to say - hello Splinters if not too late - and Emma hope you are feeling better about your decisions. I am sad at every little change too - as much as I want more sleep part of me doesn't want to let go of the special beeborn days. For me it's one of the (many) things about being a parent I was totally oblivious to before I had my first. It's harder this time as I know I won't be doing it again.

Turtles how are you getting on?
Brugs hope things are settling down