Stuck in a never ending sleep regression

[PDog]

I am beyond exhausted. DD is coming up to 8.5mo and this has been going on for 2 months.

It seems to alternate between horrendous nights or horrendous days with horrendous bedtimes. She just can't switch off - I can't take my eyes off her for a second because she is not happy unless she rolling/grabbing something/putting something in her mouth.

When she does sleep, I have to feed her to sleep but as soon as I try to get her in her cot she wakes up and starts rolling.

She has only had 30 mins sleep all day today and gets more and more hyper. It then takes between 1-3 hours to get her to bed and she will be up to 2-3 times and ready to go by 6am (despite still been shattered).

Anyone offer any advice?

Or anyone in the same boat who wants to moan share experiences.

Welcome, enimod. I'd perhaps start by trying to wake him after an hour and a half for the first nap and see if it gets him to sleep for longer at lunchtime. You could perhaps shorten the first nap a bit more if you need to.

Well done to minicrikey for last night. Isn't it annoying when they're asleep but you're not? Does your DS usually wake at 7.30, or does he usually wake earlier? If he usually wakes earlier, I'd try for a nap a couple of hours after his usual wake up time.

He usually wakes earlier- not sure what time it was this morning, but it was light.

We went for the 1pm slot (thinking he would go down for a good long sleep). He only managed about half an hour though.

I'm wondering if things will be a bit different once the older two are back to school and we can work around the school run. will keep persevering for now though.

Know what you mean about the housework angel, our house looks like it's been burgled.

We had a good night last night - just one awakening about 4.30am but a nightmare bedtime.

She woke up for the day at 6.30am but I have decided that 7am is going to be our get up time so brought her into bed with us and ignored her for half an hour.

She has been feeding to sleep but only after I have put her in her cot for a bit - never straight away. I went for naps at 9am and 1pm though and she fed to sleep without too much bother so think they are the times when she is ready for sleep. She only slept for 30 mins each time and I couldn't get her back to sleep no matter what I tried, even though she was clearly shattered.

Obviously she was over-tired and hyper by bedtime so took ages to settle. She kept pulling off my boob and crying as if she wanted the comfort but not the milk iyswim. But she wouldn't be cuddled - was thrashing around and pushing me away . Had to give her to DH to calm down and then she did eventually feed to sleep.

We are away for the weekend seeing family and friends so she will be in the car lots. I am hoping we can time it right to be in the car at 9am and 1pm so I can try and keep the consistency there. She usually sleeps in the car but will be in her new forward facing car seat so there will lots of new things to see. We were supposed to be staying until Monday but are coming home Sunday now as I really want to get things sorted before I go back to work at the beginning of October.

Glad you had a good night too crikey.

In the same boat here re housework - I had to vacuum the stairs today as they were black .

Great, PDog, I'm glad you managed to get a couple of naps even if they were only short.

Sometimes short 30 min naps are due to overtiredness. You could try moving the nap a bit earlier - maybe 8.45 and 12.45 for a start - to see if that helps. As and when she gets back to waking at 7 you can always push it back to 9 if you need to.

If she's only sleeping 30 mins at lunchtime, it may be worth trying for a third nap. It's a difficult judgement: we had a period where only 2 naps meant too long awake time between lunch nap and bedtime and so overtiredness and early waking. But a third nap meant bedtime was too late, so overtiredness and early waking. I worked out for DS that he got more total sleep by ditchig the third nap, but it may be that your DD would be better off with it until she gets the hang of sleeping longer in the day.

DS decided to demonstrate the irony of me giving advice to anyone: he woke 4 times last night, was awake from 4-5.30am and wanted to start the day at 6.

Some more bits from HSHHC on nap scheduling:

If LO doesn't nap in the morning, try not to let her sleep till about 11am.

The second nap usually occurs between noon and 2pm, most often around 1pm, but it should usually begin before 3pm.

The most common problem with the second nap is that the interval of wakefulness following the first nap is too long so the LO gets overtired.

It's more important to watch your baby than to watch the clock. There is nothing absolute about napping at 1pm or any other time in this sleep schedule.

If you can't get your LO to take the lunchtime nap and it's way past 2 or 3pm, forget this nap and try for a 'third' nap. If this nap happens early (say around 4pm), limit it to an hour and a half. If it is later (around 5pm), let your child sleep because this 'nap' may simply continue into tthe ight and it's important to maintain a n early bedtime.

Often babies between 9 and 12 months need to go to bed earlier because of increased phyical activity in the afternoon and dropping the third nap. Ideally bedtimes should be between 6 and 8pm for most babies.

AngelDog, you remain my sleep guru!!

Is this the new "Challenging 3 month-olds" thread.... six months on??!

Well, my DD's sleep has totally gone to crap - after being reasonably okay most of the time while we were away for almost two months. She's now 7 months (6 months corrected).

We're weaning her out of her baby nest (Cocoonababy) because she's outgrown it and I suspect that this fact and the heat (we're in Madrid - temps in the high 30s) are contributing factors. She only wears a nappy and a muslin sleeping sack overnight - and we have fans going (with home-made ice cube air conditioning), but still gets sweaty, especially her head.

Anyway, a lot of what you say makes sense. I need to wean her away from the feeding-to-sleep thing as she's rapidly getting to the point when she can't stay asleep for long without my nipple being in her mouth - and I can't sleep with her nibbling me for ages, it's too tickly!

Naps used to be okay, but she's barely managed a 30 min stretch today. I've been doing Pantley Pull Off and Pick Up/Put Down (with as little crying as possible, although lots of grumbling) but it feels like an uphill struggle at the moment.

So can I join in and add mutual support to everyone? Oh, the envy at mums with babies who are good sleepers!! (Wouldn't swap DD for the world, though of course!)

Hola immaculada! Reassuring to know that someone else has a crap sleeper!

Last night was horrendous for me- just felt like a yoyo going back and forth to settle DS. He would go back to sleep for what seemed like about half an hour then wake again. Resorted to Calpol in the end as figured it must be teeth.

That said, he went down easily at 9am for a nap. Rest of the day was a bit hectic as we were out buying school uniform for the other two DSs. Am I seriously the only Mum who has left buying it with only one week to go till they go back to school? I clearly must be as there is hardly any to be had.

Can I join in please? DS2's (6mo) sleep has gone haywire in the last week - not that it was ever perfect mind you.

He will only nap for one sleep cycle (45 mins) and wakes at least once in the evening after putting him down, then will wake around 11pm and wants to be on the breast pretty much all night... I recognise your description Immaculada of a nipple nibbler!

Oh god.. I can hear him now must go. Thanks though to Angeldog for all that info, I want to try the nap scheduling but have a very active 2.5yo to consider as well so staying in for DS2's naps is nigh on impossible most days.

chunkamatic- i have an older child too just turned 4 but demanding and wouldnt let baby nap anywhere not out and about in pushchair in cot etc but ive found 2 strategies that have worked- in the early days id cart them both off for an ice cream! ended up driving round the block so both would nap and now i put on some selected youtube kids favourites like fireman sam and he watches those with his big boy head phones on and will let baby nap! sounds intense but its the only way we could work it!

Hi enimod - thanks for tips, I haven't looked at youtube for kids' stuff. TBH it's not that DS1 won't let DS2 sleep, it's more that we tend to be out and about at toddler groups etc when DS1 needs his naps - and unfortunately he doesn't tend to sleep in his pushchair. I try to have a couple of mornings at home to compensate, and if DP is home one of us will stay in, but in terms of consistent nap scheduling it's not possible unless we stay in every day. I feel like it's overtired baby VS understimulated toddler - a nightmare either way in other words!!!!

i know that feeling- does toddler still nap? id go for a drive about 1-then both get a nap in. my lo doesnt sleep in pushchair either. the only bad thing about driving is that realsitically it is a danger- but maybe you could be like me-id strap them both in and by time we got to the bottom of the road they were both asleep-id then park up and read or go on here on my phone. atleast that way i was getting some nap consistency

don't want to tempt fate or anything but , DS had a nap at 9am and 1pm today and has just gone to bed at 7pm with no fuss.

At both nap times I didn't think he was tired but he went down without too much of a fight. Couldn't believe that he slept for nearly 2 hours in the afternoon - amazing!

Let's see what tonight brings

how did you get him to sleep for his naps? let me know how he goes as i am going to start this next week-i'm curious about how many night wakings you'll get. my lo goes to sleep at night in his cot but sleeps on me for his naps and wakes at night at about 10ish then cosleeps with me but wakes loads!! i think if i crack the alone naps then i'll be half way there!1

I put him in his cot. He usually stands up a bit (he's 10 mo) and then I put him down again. Sometimes he'll cry for a bit. I'll leave him for about 5 mins then check and settle him again. He sucks his fingers so once he gets them in, he's usually away. Tonight he went down without crying.

Will let you know how things progess. I used to co -sleep through the night too but just found he would be constantly helping himself to milk! (all night long)

Can I join in too? Dd (6 mo) has started the dreadful sleep thing. She's always been a good napper, and has two a day, one at 9ish, one between 1-2 and both last between 1 and 2 hours. They're definitely getting shorter, and she's started waking every 1-2 hours in the night. Before she only woke once or twice in the night for a feed, but she's not really hungry when she wakes in the night now, more shouty wriggly crawly!

I cracked at 2 in the morning last night and dd spent the rest of the night in our bed, sleeping soundly with just a couple of wakes . We coslept a bit when she was very small but we only have a small bed, barely enough room for dh and I, let alone with dd too! And it makes dh v.grumpy, so it's a bad solution.

She's cut two teeth in the past two weeks and I can see another one under the gums. She's also in the process of learning to crawl and I do find her on her hands and knees when she wakes. When she wakes, she does with a bang, big screaming etc. Sometimes ssshh pat works, sometimes not. Sometimes a feed works, but getting rarer.

Can anyone give me the willpower to/should I let her keep crying? After an hours bellowing/nearly going down then waking again what should I have done instead of bringing her in with us?

Sooooo tired, I feel your pain, ladies!

WE have the same child!! mine is 10 months too-goes down same as yours or somtimes just laughs when stood up in his cot-but wakes as soon as i go to bed-we share a room-only 2 bedroom house and eldest 4 is in his own room with dad! then baby gets in with me and cosleeps but mainly feeds=i need to knock it on the head!

hi all ( at immaculada)
just wanted to add my support and back up the claims for consistency. With DD1 (who was an awful sleeper) we spent so much time overanalysing what/why/how she/we were doing with napping/sleeping that I think we just kept changing things too many times!! With DD2 I haven't had the TIME for any of that - she has been swaddled and placed in her moses basket in a dark room for every nap and night time. she doesn't always sleep but she knows the score [strict mummy emoticon]
I do truly believe that an over tired baby is an awful baby (DD1 was this ) so i do have every sympathy.
8 months onwards is a good time to do CC - I never thought i'd be able to do it but somehow one evening I was at the end of my tether and I was doing it (albeit whilst rocking on the stairs with a large glass of wine) and three days later DD1 slept solidly. And she's still a very good sleeper....I am currently counting down the days till DD2 is old enough...
Anyway - good luck everyone - it does pass and one day you will all be nearly fully rested again...
sigh. ONWARDS

Lots more people in the same boat since Friday.

crikey . I'm having much more success with the 9am and 1pm naptimes - just need to extend them now, then get her to self settle.

Weekend hasn't been too bad - Saturday we were in car at 9am and 1pm so she did sleep but again only half hour naps. Took ages to get her to bed. I think a combination of over-tiredness and being somewhere different contributed.

Sunday - managed to get her to sleep about 9ish but then she heard a noise and went straight to full on awake in a matter of seconds so I gave up. She fell asleep at 12 in the car though and stayed asleep for nearly 2 hours . Later on we went for a walk and she dropped off in the push chair for about 30 mins.

She woke at 3.30am for a feed, which is usual but stirred when I put her back in her cot. At this time, after a feed I usually just stroke her hair and jiggle the mattress and she goes back to sleep but this morning she decided not too. An hour later, after rolling round her cot she had a screaming fit and wouldn't be settled so ended up in bed with us. I had to feed her back to sleep in the end and she ended up in my half of the bed with me perched on the edge, freezing with no duvet so am feeling very stiff today.

She slept until 8am too and ruined my 7am wake up time. Tried a nap at 9.15am and she dropped off about 9.40am (fed to sleep). Made the mistake of trying to get her in her cot though and she woke up and wouldn't go back to sleep. Will try again at 1pm.

enimod, sounds a tricky situation!

Are you hoping at some point that the children will share a room?

You'll never guess what though....minicrikey slept through all night from 7pm. I just couldn't believe it! Maybe it was just a fluke. Tried for the 9am nap again and he messed around for a while then slept for about half an hour.

i dont know whats going to happen aboput bedrooms! we need a new house. 4 year old wakes very early and is naughty so i doubt theyll be sharing for a long time. i think i might start sleeping down stairs?

Luckily, DD is pretty cheerful most of the time - when she's very tired, she will usually sleep rather than not - but not always as long as I'd like! She seldom goes into meltdown (once in a while at bedtime, but otherwise is smiley through the day). So the problem is my sleep rather than hers - I think she gets what she needs, although it's less than some babies (but there is a huge degree of variation, so I'm not going to beat myself up about that!)

Going to bed at 1900 was resulting in a 0600 wake-up, so we've shifted to 2000, which means she wakes up for the day around 0700 - much more bearable! So...11 hours, with multiple awakening, sometimes with one long resettle. Recently we'd got it down to 3 awakenings, but I think coming back home to extreme heat and a new mattress (she was in a baby nest) have contributed to her being unsettled again.

ANYHOO...

She was doing 3-4 naps of about 40 mins each roughly every 2 hours. I've now realised she can go longer between naps and will get to sleep more quickly if she's more tired, rather than me spend ages coaxing her if I haven't left it long enough.

Last night she was a bit late going to bed, so woke at 0730 today. I went for a 0930 nap, she eventually got off at 0955. I fed her off and resettled her once, resulting in a nap of 1hr10 in total - figured I'd try and get some longer naps out of her before trying to fully stop the FTS!

Next nap was at 2 - again, FTS, was off by 1415 and slept the usual 40 mins. I tried to get her back off, but no success.

She needs a third nap, so I'm going to try and get her off about 1700ish, although I'm dubious about naps after 1700. But making bedtime too early doesn't work either, I've tried it!

Tonight I'll try and get the bedtime back to 2000 so we can get ourselves back on track napwise.

I'm trying to get her to take most of her naps in her sleep zone, but would like her remain a bit flexible if poss, don't want to tie the family to the house at every single naptime!!

Anyway, long one, sorry!

Big sympathy to all Mummies with big eye-bags!!!

I haven't ruled out a little CC, by the way, but we live in a flat so must consider the neighbours! Currently DD does a squeal on waking, but doesn't make much noise if I get to her quickly.

Anyway, we'll see how things pan out...

Good luck to all!

Bumping this thread for now. Have no real time to type my post now, but will be back with my woe with DS 6 months.

Hello everyone.

PDog, it's great you're seeing progress. I would definitely try moving the lunchtime nap earlier as I suspect your DD is only having a short one due to overtiredness.

I'm trying to do the same with DS - although he sleeps for 2 hours total at 1pm, it takes 5-25 mins to resettle him between cycles, and I think it might be slight overtiredness meaning he can't easily get off again. Today he happily went to sleep at 12.35 and is on the second cycle now (after being re-settled).

crikey - hooray! :) Here's hoping it continues.

IC, hello again, I was wondering the other day how you were getting on. Sorry to hear that your DD is still a frequent waker. Will she ever go back to sleep at night for your DH?

The Baby Whisperer says that short naps can be caused by the awake time being too short so the LO isn't tired enough to need a long nap (although she does talk about them being short due to overtiredness too). She suggests lengthening the awake time by 15 mins and going with that for a few days, and then lengthening it by another 15 mins for a few days until you work out the right balance between not being tired enough and not being overtired. Might be worth a try.

On the 'nibbling nipple', I found a huge difference in how DS feeds at night since I started resettling without feeding whenever possible. He still needs at least one night feed but now he actively feeds, then unlatches himself, rolls over and goes to sleep - just like Elizabeth Pantley describes in the NCSS. I was amazed. He even does it when he wants to feed for comfort rather than food (e.g. because a tooth is bothering him).

grumpykat, I reckon your DD needs a third nap. It sounds as if she's been on the verge of overtiredness which has built up and is now affecting her ability to stay asleep for naps and at night. The developmental stuff will be making it worse, of course. I'd try for one around 4 / 4.30ish.

What I do when DS is like that is to rock him in the rocking chair until he falls asleep again. But we sort of co-sleep part of the time and it doesn't help him get to sleep or stay asleep, which is why I have to rock him if feeding doesn't work.

More on the number of naps per day from HSHHC:

Months 5-8_
16% of babies have 3 naps
84% have 2 naps

Month 9
5% have 3 naps
91% have 2 naps
4% have 1 nap

Months 10-12
1% have 3 naps
82% have 2 naps
17% have 1 nap

Weissbluth also says that about 20% of children are short nappers - they take short naps in the morning & at lunchtime no matter what parents do. Between 6 and 9 months, the child needs many short naps throughout the day and often appears tired. (I think they have been missed out of his percentages, though!)

As long as the bedtime is early, by 9 or 12 months, most of these chidren will take fewer and longer naps and no longer appear tired. He thinks that most of these are babies who had colic when younger.

my baby has about 2 hours approx 920 am and 40 mins maybe 1 hour approx 130. he gets woken by his brother between 640 and 7am. he never grumbles or complains but has started to put his head down on the floor alot as if tired- he has never fallen asleep by himself like other babies do!!(unless in car) i feed to sleep or pat his bum to sleep. he wakes alot at night-we cosleep.
my main problem is this putting his head down. is he not getting enough sleep?? he is anaemic could it be this??
he is 10 months old and very content, placid and happy.