Stuck in a never ending sleep regression

[PDog]

I am beyond exhausted. DD is coming up to 8.5mo and this has been going on for 2 months.

It seems to alternate between horrendous nights or horrendous days with horrendous bedtimes. She just can't switch off - I can't take my eyes off her for a second because she is not happy unless she rolling/grabbing something/putting something in her mouth.

When she does sleep, I have to feed her to sleep but as soon as I try to get her in her cot she wakes up and starts rolling.

She has only had 30 mins sleep all day today and gets more and more hyper. It then takes between 1-3 hours to get her to bed and she will be up to 2-3 times and ready to go by 6am (despite still been shattered).

Anyone offer any advice?

Or anyone in the same boat who wants to moan share experiences.

Thanks again AngelDog. I think you could make a new career as a sleep guru .

More success today. Had a good night with only 2 awakenings after I had gone to bed. She woke just after 6am but I brought her in bed with us and she went back to sleep without being fed!

I fed her to sleep and she went off about 9.15am and slept for an hour . I was more patient today though and didn't try to get her in her cot. She was latched on for most of the nap but at least she had a decent sleep.

She fed back to sleep by about 1.05pm and I was able to get her in her cot this time. Unfortunately though she had her first taster session at nursery today and we had to leave the house at 1.45pm. Typically she decided not to wake up in bewteen sleep cycles so I had to wake her - perhaps this might have been her first 2hr nap.

Anyway, she was alseep in bed by 7.10pm, the earliest I have managed to get her down in ages .

I do think she needs to go down a bit earlier so am going to try 8.45am and 12.45pm tomorrow and see how that works.

enimod no idea, sorry. Sounds as though he is getting enough day time sleep but maybe he is not getting enough at night.

grumpykat25 DD often ends up in bed with us if she doesn't resettle. Not ideal as we are not set up for co-sleeping so she ends up taking up most of my side with me perched on the edge, freezing because I daren't put the duvet over her . At the moment, I'm just going with whatever gets us all the most sleep and will work on the where once I have got her actually sleeping.

crikey hope it continues.

Thanks for all the tips angeldog. Had another good night last night with no wakings until 6am. Naps had to be as and when today as we were out and about so we'll see how tonight goes.

Know where you're coming from with the co-sleeping. It used to be such a good way of getting the most amount of sleep for everyone. But since DS has been on the move, he has taken to waking up DH by twisting his nose or grabbing his arm so we've pretty much knocked it on the head.

grumpykat25- I think when babies have so much developmental stuff going on it really throws their sleep in to disarray. Their brains just can't cope with it all.

This thread is so interesting. Lots of interesting tips that I've tried to implement with DS.

When I posted yesterday DS was the incredible non-sleeping baby for a few days, but last night he slept all night. I figured out that his non-sleeping was cuz a cold was developing. Poor thing.

enimod, I've not heard about other babies putting their heads down, but it could be tiredness. Does he do it throughout the day, or is it before naps?

Babies do get less co-ordinated when they become tired. I know that my DS likes to lie his head down when he's drowsy. For example, when I'm rocking him to sleep against my chest, he'll be up and looking at things but he lies his head on my chest more and more often as he gets drowsy. He was doing it in the cot the other day when I'd fed him to sleep. He woke up when I put him down and was rolling around on his tummy wanting to play, but kept putting his head down on the mattress, even though he didn't appear tired in other ways.

I wonder if he needs more sleep later in the day and less sleep earlier in the day? It could be that his lunchtime nap isn't restful enough to keep him going till bedtime which might be one reason for night waking.

Elizabeth Pantley says that the average 9 month old will sleep 2.5 - 4 hours in the day and 11-12 hours at night - 14 hours total daytime & nighttime sleep. There is some variation depending on who you read.

I think some co-sleeping babies wake more often because the milk is there available, espcially after around 9 months or so. Does he sleep any better in the evening before you go to bed? Have you tried resettling without feeding as often as possible during the night? The No-Cry Sleep Solution has some good ideas particularly aimed at co-sleeping families.

I think it's normal for a baby of this age not to be able to go to sleep on their own. Elizabeth Pantley quotes research that suggests that in 68% of families, babies (ie under a year) need help or parental presence to fall asleep at bedtime, and 50% of toddlers & preschoolers do.

Oops, cross-posted with lots of people. PDog, that is fab that your DD managed to stay asleep from one cycle to the next. (I'm slightly in fact - DS has yet to do it.)

Working on timings now and getting in the cot later sounds like a good plan - consistency is the key to everything sleep-related and it's easiest to be consistent when you're only trying work on one thing at once IME.

I quite fancy being a sleep consultant, but I need to get DS's sleep sorted first! He was up more often than I care to remember last night, but he had terrible wind which wouldn't come out unless he was feeding, poor scrap.

TLC, glad things are improving and that minicrikey had another good night.

my eldest starts school tomorow so i will persevere with the afternoon nap- up to now its been tricky as baby wonr sleep on the go and ive been trying to stop my just turned 4 year old from haivng his nap in preparation for school- so when baby has had aftenoon nap eldest wants to also sleep!! so as soon as baby stirs we try and get up and out the house to keep the eldest on the go!! tryicky!! but as of tomorrow the afternoon naps will be able to blend on stiring after sleep cycles-think i'll just feed to sleep when he wakes this week then from next pat his bum to sleep etc.
he always looks tired-has bags under his eyes but they might be allergy or anaemic eyes? he never cries, complains etc or gets hyper when tired so its hard to tell if he needs more sleep. i think he probably gets 12 hours at night- (he is in bed 13 hours and wakes a few but only for minutes) and getsd about 3 hours in the day-so thats 15 hours! seems alot

More on naps from the Sleepytot website:

Average 'contented awake times' for different ages

Dropping a nap

How much should my baby sleep?

Hi all,
sorry to sound dense- but how do you know how long a sleep cycle lasts? minicrikey went down at 9am like a dream but then woke 40 mins later. Is this enough?

Must say (reaching for the nearest piece of wood to touch) that everything seems to be slipping in to place.

I think that was has helped is a combination of more scheduled naps and not feeding to sleep unless unavoidable that has helped. I've never been one for strict routines or sleep training and have always maintained that 'getting through the night' is a developmental stage like all the others.

He woke a couple of times last night but I managed to settle him quickly in his cot.

Sorry you had a hard night Angeldog- there's always something that throws a spanner in the works isn't there!

my 10 months sleep cycle is 40 minutes-he then stirs, wakes or goes straight back to sleep.

Thanks enimod

I think lots of babies vary between 30-45 min cycles for naps.

Night time tend to be 1.5 - 2 hrs, sometimes 1, and the first cycle of the night is 30-45 mins long if my DS is anything to go by (he always wakes after it).

I agree, crikey, on the 'through the night' thing being at least partly developmental. That's why I don't mind feeding DS in the night when he needs it. But it is nice to be able to help them on their way a bit ! :)

Thanks for the advice, AngelDog!

50mins of PPO, PUPD, SshPat last night and DD eventually fell asleep without being attached to me. The night wasn't that great, but a couple of good things: I detached reasonably quickly after feeds/resettled and mostly that was ok with DD (well, she didn't notice enough to wake up and complain apart from once). Also, she started doing her squeals at one point (squeal....couple of minutes....another one...no crying, though) and fed up with it I just ignored her and after three she shut up and fell properly asleep. Heartening.

I try to resettle without feeding, but it's difficult because ssh/patting often sets DD off wailing for me and holding and rocking annoys her because she's rooting madly and expects a nipple or she starts crying in frustration.

DH is willing to help, although I'm cautious because he's the working one and also needs more sleep than me. Will try though, perhaps this weekend when he doesn't have to work.

I suppose the risk it the above methods don't work and it becomes a 1.5hr resettle or more instead of a ten minute job....

But I guess I'm going to have to go through the pain barrier to some degree if we're ever going to shift this habit.

Incidentally, although bedtime is now a time when I work on putting her down without being attached to me, I'm still feeding back to sleep overnight more often than not and often for naps too. Not very consistent, but I can't face a 3am yell-a-thon and I'm aware DD needs her day sleep. Any thoughts on that?

Good to hear some progress from other posters!! It's heartening to the rest of us.

Crikey would you mind sharing how you managed to break the feed to sleep habit? We have a similar situation to IC in that DD gets very angry and then screams if I don't feed her. It goes on for ages and she is very loud; I just don't have the energy for it at 1am.

Sympathies AngelDog. We also had a bad night as DH has kindly passed on his cold. She was very unsettled between midnight and 5am and I ended up bringing her in with me (DH was in spare room due to his cold) so I could get some sleep.

She has been very clingy today so although she managed 2 naps, both were spent latched on to me. Went for an early bedtime as she was shattered but it still took nearly 2 hours to get her down. She is now asleep in the middle of our bed

IC - woohoo! :)

(Incidentally I can't help chuckling at me giving other people advice... )

I don't think you're going to have much joy (re)settling her without feeding if you're doing it. That means to get quicker results, your DH will need to have a go at doing it. She is old enough now to know that your DH won't be able to feed her.

The bad news: the fastest way to sort the problem is to be consistent with bedtime and every waking throughout the night. I wouldn't consider attempting this method unless you are 100% sure you want to do it, and are prepared for some serious short-term sleep deprivation for all of you, & potential 3am screamathons.

The good news: settling without a feed at bedtime may well improve things (although it may take a while before you see results) - any weakening of the sucking-to-sleep association is a good thing.

Can DH do the settling at bedtime? If he takes over at least the latter part of the bedtime routine (or all of it) while you stay out of the way, that would help.

You could also get him to try resettling for the wakings during the evening before your bedtime. After that, you carry on feeding as normal, although I'd keep going with unlatching her. It will take longer than if you were doing it for all night wakings, but I reckon you may well see progress.

I found that resettling without a feed worked best if I lurked in DS's room ready to swing into action before he was fully awake. This only really worked with the first waking of the evening as it was the predictable one, but again, I think it would help you.

I'd not be surprised if (re)settling does take 1.5 hours instead of 10 mins. It should get faster, though, and although it will mean lost sleep for your DD in the short term, if it helps her stop waking looking for a feed after every sleep cycle it will help you all in the medium/longer term.

Don't worry about naps. There's some evidence to suggest that daytime & nighttime sleep are controlled by different parts of the brain. If you're working on night waking, do anything and everything it takes to get her to nap.

Well Pdog I'll see if I can share anything useful.

I don't feed to sleep (anymore ) for day time naps.

Previously in the night, I was just feeding back to sleep as I felt it was the quickest way to get him and me back to sleep. (anything for a quiet life me)

However, over the last week or so, I started to realise he wasn't looking for a feed. Isn't there something about 'never offer, never refuse'? So I just stopped offering in the night (unless I was getting desperate) and tried to settle him by patting. There were a few moments where I thought he'd gone back to sleep but as I crept out of the room (trying to avoid the creaking floorboards) he would just seem to sense that I wasn't there anymore and the eyes would ping open again.

Last night he woke twice and I managed to settle him without a feed (he sucks his fingers incidentally) just by stroking his head for a bit. The time I need to spend settling him has reduced from last week but I'm not counting my chickens yet.

Must go, have just watched a rather harrowing Crimewatch programme and need to go to bed and relax with a cup of camomile tea.

Will catch up tomorrow.

Thanks once more AngelDog for the continuing advice - I'm really grateful!

Last night was urghh. First two wake ups were a quick feed-back and no probs being unlatched and going back to sleep. The third was disastrous, DD didn't want to be unlatched so we had 2hrs15mins of intermittent crying while I continually tried the various methods to calm her down without continually trying to feed her (she was only nibbling anyhow). DH escaped to the sofa in the end and it was 05.15 when she finally passed out...only to wake again at 0600. That time she took a quick feed then merely grumbled a bit when unlatched, before going back to sleep (hallelujah) until 0740.

DH had a go at settling DD for her first nap (after I'd given up - once again, she didn't want to unlatch) - result was loads of screaming until she gave in at 11.15 (after 1.5hrs) and slept for a whopping 30 mins. We then read your nap post above - ah well. It wasn't an entirely wasted effort, though - it showed DH that he CAN stick with it and she will give in eventually, so he's more confident about sharing the nighttime agony now (!)

So, for the next nap starting at 1440, I fed DD to sleep and re-fed her back after 20mins then another 10. She's still asleep now at 1600.

I shall move bed-time earlier, I think - to no later than 19.30 and continue with my efforts to get her off to sleep without being fed.

DH wondered if it might be kinder to do CC (assuming it worked within a week) given the amount of hysteria we're living with by trying to do it using "gentler" methods - ie, less crying overall and a faster result. I can sympathise, but am not ready to put DD in her own room just yet. Besides, it's a bit awkward (though not impossible) with our living arrangements. I dread to think how the people who live above us are reacting to the 03.00 screamfest, though...

Anyway, once more thanks AngelDog - it's good to hear from someone in the same situation but a few jumps ahead. The nap schedule seems like a good idea too. I'll try and implement that.

Good luck to everyone else - fingers crossed the progress continues, crikeybadger...

Urghh indeed, IC.

Well done to your DH. I know what you mean about him having confidence. That's one of the main reasons my DH can't get DS to sleep for naps - he doesn't really have the confidence to try (unless it's in the sling or pushchair). He'll have to try when I go back to work one day a week and he looks after DS, though!

I know what your DH means about CC. This way may well involve more crying. But IMO, at her age, this is likely to involve less distress. She's not yet old enough to know that you're coming back to her in CC, whereas with this, she's with someone she knows and trusts even if she is screaming. It might be different if she were older - but I expect you'll go potty if this goes on too much longer.

What is on your side is that there's a strong biological urge to sleep at night time in a way which doesn't exist for naps. So it's likely that she will go to sleep eventually, even if it's a painful process and she doesn't stay asleep for long.

DS has quite often been up for a longish spell in the night and dropped off around 5am only to sleep for 30-45 mins. I think their bodies are telling them it's a nap rather than nighttime. He rarely goes back off on these occasions though.

We are having slightly different issues here today. DS was awake for 1.5 hours in the night again. He is still struggling with wind, and has developed a new type of crying - kind of hoarse screaming which I think is due to tummy problems. He does it when I'm trying to rock him or feed him, as well as at other times. He's had lots of very soft & wet poo too for the last couple of days.

He refused to feed all afternoon and at the start of our bedtime routine :( but fed to sleep at the usual point in the bedtime routine and very briefly when he woke just now. After several feeds last night & this morning he pulled himself off yelling. I think feeding makes his digestive problems feel worse, although sometimes it alleviates them.

He wasn't really interested in solids this evening either. So I think tonight I'm going to feed as often as he might want it and deal with the consequences later. Judging by the soreness of his latch his teeth are bothering him at the moment too. :(

On naps, though, I went for a 12.30 nap instead of 1pm. He slept for 30 mins, resettled (eventually) and he then stayed asleep without help for another 1.5 hours!

He was yawning shortly after 12, though, so I might try moving that nap to 12.15 and see if that works better.

Thanks crikey. If she wakes before 3-ish it isn't usually due to hunger so will maybe try not feeding if she wakes before then.

Not just yet though as had a hideous night last night - think she slept for one 2-hr block when she first went to sleep and was then awake every hour. Think it is due to her cold but could also be teeth as she is drooling lots, chomping her fingers and tugging her ears - poor little thing.

Had 15 mins of screaming when I put her in her cot tonight,even though she was fast asleep on me. Sat next her, shushing and stroking her head and she went back to sleep eventually. It felt like much longer than 15 mins though and made me feel awful .

Yeah on the nap front AngelDog . We had a few bad nights with DD waking due to tummy ache/wind a few weeks ago. I think it is their digestive system getting used to dealing with solids; certainly the contents of her nappy are less distinguishable (sp?) these days.

MY DH doesn't have as much will power as me - one mumble from DD and he's had enough. He does go in to try to settle her but she usually ends up screaming and about 2 mins later I hear "PDog, I think she wants you" over the monitor .

Oh, poor you PDog... I know that feeling [sympathy emoticon]

I agree with you re CC, AngelDog, although last night I thought I'd do a bit of Controlled Whingeing/Protesting to see what happened.

I fed DD until 1900 (she was dropping to sleep) then she began complaining when I put her down. I kissed her, told her I love her then left her to it, but bustled back in and out of the room a few times, then did the washing up in the kitchen next door so she could hear I was close by. At no point did the level of crying get beyond protesting and indignation (I would have gone straight back in to reassure her if so), it was mainly intermittent for a couple of minutes at a time then a pause. In the end she dropped off to sleep after about 20mins of it.

We then had 4 hours of sleep (an improvement on recently), whereupon she awoke (by this time I was lying beside her) and grumbled and fidgeted for a bit (lower level than at bedtime) then fell back to sleep again after about 15-20mins without me doing anything except listening and preparing to intervene if it sounded like she was getting distressed. It never did. The same thing happened an hour later shortly after DH came to bed. Then all was quiet for about 3 hours then she woke up and fidgeted some more - this time with very little vocalising. Again, I listened but didn't move unless she sounded like she was getting upset. Eventually, she fell back to sleep (although that was a long resettle - more than an hour, I think, but I didn't check the clock). She next awoke at 05.45 and her whimpering sounded pretty insistent, so this time I fed her. She took a good feed off both boobs, then unlatched herself. I put her down and after a bit more fidgeting, she fell back to sleep until 08.30.

Wow. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be. I think, the same as EP with her son, I was intervening too quickly and not giving DD a chance to try and resettle without my help. Clearly she can do it.

We've NEVER had a night with only one feed although on reflection, I would offer it earlier - perhaps the long resettle might have been foreshortened.

I got rubbish sleep of course - my own pattern is so tuned to waking up and tending to her needs then going back once she's sorted, so I spent a lot of time awake and listening or feeling too gobsmacked or too engorged (!) to drop of myself. Still, it feels like progress.

Whether tonight will be better? Time will tell.

The 08.30 wake up has already messed up the nap schedule, as has the car-nap she took when we went on a cot-buying mission to IKEA.

Anyway, fingers crossed this self-settling is the start of something....

Woohoo, IC, that is the FABBEST thing I've heard for ages. Long may it continue!

I think Controlled Whingeing is very different from controlled crying. In fact, I did Controlled Grizzling with DS when he was younger which worked well until I hurt my hands and had to feed him completely to sleep lying down, when it rather went to pot.

The good news is that according to books, the the more consistent you were in responding (ie if you were feeding every time), the faster her wakings will stop when you stop doing it.

I know what you mean about spending half the night awake / engorged. I had that when DS had a few nights sleeping through after waking me 4x a night. Shame in my case as it didn't last, but that was due to the enforced co-sleeping, I think.

Like PDog, my DS (now 8 m.o) needs a feed around 3-4am (although if he's troubled with wind/teeth or didn't have a proper feed at bedtime he may need one at 10pm too).

PDog, sorry to hear your night wasn't so good. It's so up and down, isn't it? I can see why the NCSS only recommends doing sleep logs at 10 day intervals.

The 12.15 nap didn't work today. It took an hour to get DS off, he woke crying after 30 mins but refused to go back again. I think it was his digestion as he was refusing to feed properly again. I saw the HV who said it's probably a bug and could last a week. He's still struggling but it does seem to be improving slowly.

He woke lots last night but I've resettled so far this evening without feeding, so hopefully tonight will be better.

Oh, IC, I meant to ask how you managed to have your DD not fall asleep when feeding at bedtime. Did you just feed her really early?

Great that you feel you've made some progress IC.

Pdog and Angeldog- sounds like you're all having a pretty bad time of it all with wind and teeth. Guess it's just a case of riding it out with them when they are in pain.

Things going OK here but naps are getting seriously messed up by being out and about. I've been a bit mean too and have removed the monitor from our room so that I only get woken up if DS is really crying (is that horrible?)

And I thought I'd add something about the controlled crying / controlled whingeing thing for anyone else reading - and IC, I'm sorry that I hadn't suggested this before!

There is a theory (which I found on the AskMoxie parenting blog) that there are two types of babies - those who increase tension by crying and those who release tension by crying.

Tension releasers often need to fuss/cry in order to relax before sleep. They may fuss when feeding or being rocked to sleep. These are the babies for whom 'controlled crying' works really well.

Tension increasers get more and more distressed the more they cry and need a lot of help to calm down. Controlled crying with these is likely to be difficult and will involve a lot of screaming.

Moxie herself is opposed to cry it out methods but thinks that 'fuss it out' for tension releasers is just sensible. One of her sons was a tension releaser, the other a tension increaser so she speaks from experience.

She suggests that the way to tell which sort of baby you have is to leave them for a bit and see whether the crying is escalating (tension increaser) or calming down (tension releaser).

You can read her explanation of this here.

Thanks again AngelDog. Don't think I am cut out for CC but she tends to shout more than cry. Not really sure whether she is a releaser or an increaser - can they be both ?

Great news IC, hope it continues for you.

I don't think you are mean at all crikey. Would be quite tempted myself if DD wasn't on a different floor.

Well she is alseep in her cot now, which is an improvement on the last three nights. She seems more herself today so I am hoping for a better night. Desperately need it - we were supposed to be going on holiday tomorrow but have postponed it by a day as have got nothing done this week.

How sad do I sound when I say I would rather not go so I can work on her sleep? She starts nursery the week after and I am very stressed by it all. She was there for a couple of hours this morning and when I went to pick her up, 2 babies were fast asleep on some cushions and another one was dozing in a swing! Wonder how they are going to deal with my sleep resistant bundle of energy? Also worried about how she will be with no boob all day.

I'd rather chew my arm off than do CC myself, PDog, but DS is a increaser so it would be pretty horrific here. He's improving, though - DS used to get almost instantly hysterical if left, whereas now it's a slower progression from complaining to wailing to shrieking.

I'm sure it's a spectrum rather than exactly two groups. And I know that some releasers behave like increasers if they're overtired. Apparently it's not unusual for babies to swap from being one type to the other at 18 months (when there's a huge developmental spurt & sleep regression) or again at 3 years when there's another one.

I know exactly what you mean about delaying your holiday. I got to the point of not wanting to go away because of DS's sleep, and my social life has been on hold for ages as it's really hard to fit things around naps.

One advantage of a nursery is that they will have experience of lots and lots of different babies, and I'm sure they'll have had some like your DD before. I know that in the comments on naps on the Moxie site there are loads of people whose babies won't nap at all at home (or will only feed to sleep, and refuse to let anyone else put them to bed), but who nap quite happily at nursery. But I totally understand why you're worried.

We had a better night. DS woke 5 times but I did PUPD each time and he didn't get distressed like the previous couple of nights. I didn't feed him until 5.40am although he didn't go back to sleep again after that. His upset stomach is definitely improving so hopefully I can keep going with the PUPD for the next few nights.