Stuck in a never ending sleep regression

[PDog]

I am beyond exhausted. DD is coming up to 8.5mo and this has been going on for 2 months.

It seems to alternate between horrendous nights or horrendous days with horrendous bedtimes. She just can't switch off - I can't take my eyes off her for a second because she is not happy unless she rolling/grabbing something/putting something in her mouth.

When she does sleep, I have to feed her to sleep but as soon as I try to get her in her cot she wakes up and starts rolling.

She has only had 30 mins sleep all day today and gets more and more hyper. It then takes between 1-3 hours to get her to bed and she will be up to 2-3 times and ready to go by 6am (despite still been shattered).

Anyone offer any advice?

Or anyone in the same boat who wants to moan share experiences.

Sympathies from me - although DS is much improved from what he was and naps are not too bad (despite needing resettling between every sleep cycle).

Just out of interest, how are you doing naps? Are you following her tired signs, or going by how long she's been awake, or by the clock?

I really sympathise - my now 2.2year old has had various stages of crappy sleep and I have been near to broken by the tiredness at times.

I found a few of the ideas in the No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley helpful.

It's hard to remember exactly when it happened, but once she was napping better in the daytime, her nighttime sleep was generally better. She used to nap well in the sling until about 6 months, then it took a while to get her to nap in her cot, but she got there in the end (she still happily trots off to bed for an hour's kip after lunch most days). I used to sit in the room with her with Radio 4 on as a) a kind of white noise b) a distraction for me and then gradually cut down the length of time I spent in the room until eventually she was falling asleep by herself without me in the room at all. It did take quite a while for this to work, but the approach suited us, even if some of my friends were visibly when I told them what I was doing.

Anyway, maybe have a go at getting her to take longer naps to see if that makes a difference?

I also found that once my daughter got to about 1, she was wearing herself out much more toddling about that the sleep improved a little.

It's really tough, sleep deprivation, hope it improves for you soon.

AngelDog by her tired signs mainly. Have never done a routine by the clock but try to do things in the same order so usually try naps after breakfast, after lunch and before tea.

JPTA thanks. My presence seems to make no difference unless I am feeding her. She hasn't napped in the sling since she was about 4mo. She will sleep in the car/pram but only for 30 mins max.

If I put her down if her cot she just rolls and rolls and then starts crying. I then feed her and she falls asleep but as soon as I try to move her she wakes up or cries looking for boob. I can sometimes get her down if I unlatch her as I place her in the cot but this is quite tricky as she is huge. If I make any noise creeping out, she wakes and has a moment where I think she will go back to sleep but then starts rolling and wakes up.

At the moment I am letting her sleep on me for at least one nap but I need to get things done - prepare food, tidy up, go to the loo, get dressed etc.

I'm worried about overfeeding too as she is spending half the day feeding.

Hmm, this sounds suspiciously like the problems DS had, which have greatly improved. I don't have time to post properly now, I'm afraid, but I'll pop back tomorrow and tell you what we did in case it helps - we followed advice from sleep books (mainly Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child) and from IgglyBuff here.

Just a couple of questions, though: what time do you aim to have her in bed asleep, and when do you get her up in the mornings (whenever she wakes up, or at a set time?)

I really wouldn't worry about the feeding thing. Absolutely everything I've read says that you can't overfeed a breastfed baby (and especially if you're BLWing as well it's not like you're forcing solids down her too). I had a look at Kellymom to see if there was anything on this, and there was nothing to suggest that it could be a problem.

Actually, just popping back - I was looking on the Food Standards Agency website at info on feeding babies over 6 months. It says "If you are breastfeeding, continue to offer the breast and let your baby decide how much they need."

Thanks AngelDog.

She had a good night last night, woke about 4am doing a tummy shuffle and banging her head on her cot, had to feed her but she slept until 7am .

She has only had about 40 mins sleep today though. She woke after 10 mins in her cot this morning and then had 2 15 min-ish sleeps in the pram while we were out.

I aim to have her asleep by 7.30pm but it is very hit and miss. Bedtime routine is story, bath, feed, cot (she is in her own room now, thought that might help but seems not) and starts anytime between 5.45 and 6.30, depending on how tired she is and when her last nap was.

For the last few weeks she has been falling totally asleep on my boob, then waking up after about 5 mins. It is taking at least an hour to get her down. She has always had a massive feed before bed and usually takes a good 30 mins. Now because she is so sleepy she takes forever. I try to wait for her to come off but she doesn't seem to so I take her off when she has stopped actively sucking and has slept on me for a 10 min stretch, then put her in her cot. She has been waking up after 5-10mins and goes straight to screaming, won't be resettled by any other means other than boob.

Morning - we don't have a set wake up time. She usually wakes at 6am no matter what time she has been up in the night. She is still visibly tired though, rubbing eyes, yawning etc. I usually bring her in bed with us and try and feed her back to sleep. Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. We are normally up by 7.15 though; whether she has gone back to sleep or not.

At the moment I am so worried by her continuous lack of sufficient sleep that I don't care where or at what time she sleeps, as long as she does. I think she needs less sleep than other babies but still isn't getting enough during the day. Before this started she was having about 1.30 to 2hrs sleep in the day and seemed fine on this.

Nights have improved recently and she is now having a good 6/7 hour stretch. What happens after that is variable - sometimes she will wake every hour, sometimes goes back off until 5.30/6am.

Thanks for offering to help, I really appreciate it. Glad to hear things have improved for you, long may it last.

Oh, and thanks for the reassurance re feeding. It just feels like she is having more milk now than she was before we started weaning . Just have to learn to relax and trust her.

Maybe just going for 2 naps, one in the morning and one afternoon would help? If only to reduce your levels of frustration at getting her to nap.

It's hazy now, but I do remember the gradual withdrawal thing being a slow process and at first she really wasn't happy about not falling asleep at the breast. THat's where the book came in handy, talking in detail about how to take her off and get her in her cot before she was properly asleep.

I used to do similar, let her have one nap in the car/pushchair/ on my lap then concentrate on sorting out the afternoon nap in the cot. I also kept her downstairs in the evening at that age, as she just wouldn't play ball with a 7pm bedtime and I just found it too stressful trying for hours to get her to go to sleep at this time. She just wanted to cluster feed and sleep on my lap. Again, can't remember exactly when she moved to an earlier bedtime, but think it was more like 10/11 months. I just used to try periodically to get her to go to bed earlier, and eventually she was a lot easier.

Sorry, I don't feel like I've got anything useful to add, apart from I sympathise, but for us it did get better over time - be kind to yourself, it's really draining and stressful, but it won't go on forever. They are all different, my elder daughter was so much easier sleep wise, and this one just needed (still needs sometimes) a lot more reassurance going to sleep.

Oh, and as AngelDog says, please don't worry about overfeeding a breast fed baby. Rope in as much support as you can to help with day to day cooking/cleaning/childcare as the problem is more that you get more and more tired and stressed.

Last thought, has she got any teeth or do you see any white in her gums? Could partly explain the frequency of feeds if she is doing it to comfort herself?

Oops, cross posts.

You sound a lot more positive - amazing how one good night can really restore your mood! Hope you have another decent stretch tonight

Just wanted to add that my DD was similar, she seemed to up the milk intake after weaning, she only really got into solids at about 10/11 months. Relaxing and trusting is the way to go, but it is bloody hard!

Thanks JPTA. Unfortunately it didn't last - she was up lots last night. Think it was her teeth though as once I'd given her some medicine she managed a 5 hour stretch.

The crappy sleep and needing to feed to sleep began when her teeth started coming. She now has 4 but I think the next ones are starting to come. She seemed a lot worse before they started cutting through so I think it is the movement that gets to her iykwim.

I think it is a combination of a lot of things - teeth, learning to move, pull up, wave, clap, kiss etc - that makes it so difficult for her to switch off.

She has just slept on me for about 30 mins, feeding on and off but I have managed to get her in her cot now so hopefully she will sleep a bit longer.

Glad you had a better night last night, PDog. We have the shuffling & head banging too - it's quite disconcerting!

This is going to be a mammoth essay, but I wanted to err on the side of explaining too much rather than not enough. I'll put it in a few posts for easier reading!

Some background. A month ago, DS woke at 6.30ish, was having 3 naps a day, very rarely more than 30 (sometimes 45) mins even if re-fed when waking. I used time since he woke up as a rough guide, then looked for tired signs. He always woke 45 mins after bedtime and then usually twice in ?my? night IYSWIM.

We had a week?s holiday where naps were all over the place, and bedtimes were consistently too late. After that, he started waking 45 mins after bedtime and 1.5 hours for the rest of the night until waking for the day between 5 and 5.30am. He?d often be up & wanting to play for an hour or so in the middle of the night too. I fed him each time as it was the easiest way to get him off again.

He?d only nap in the (moving) sling or if fed to sleep, but would only stay asleep if I left him on my lap.

Now he sleeps for 30 mins in the morning and 2 hours at lunchtime (although I still need to re-settle him between each of the sleep cycles). I can now put him in his cot once I?ve fed him to sleep, and on a couple of occasions he?s let himself be rocked to sleep.

The problems for him seem to have been:

1. Transition from 3 naps to 2
2. Need for scheduled naps rather than flexible ones
3. Development of an overly strong feeding-to-sleep association.

Onto your DD. I agree with Joan ? I think she needs to drop her 3rd nap. Depending on which sleep books you read, the third nap should go either by 9 months or from 9 months, or else they?re not tired at the usual bedtime. If you put them to bed later, when they are tired, it is later than their ?biological? bedtime so you have a battle on your hands even if they are tired.

When dropping the third nap, you will probably need to move bedtime earlier to compensate for the extra tiredness in the late afternoon.

I think that changing from using tired signs to going by the clock might help too. Apparently from around 6 months onwards, tired signs become much less reliable and doing things ?by the clock? suits many babies better. By 10 months most babies? body clocks are capable of being completely synchronised with the 24 hour day. However, they need some help with this, since the body naturally works on a 25 hour day.

To do this, you are supposed to get them to wake up at the same time each day. Ha. In practice, this means getting them up at the same time each day. Pick the time that your DD tends to wake when she?s not waking early with overtiredness. Before that, behave as if it?s night time, even if she doesn?t go back to sleep.

If DS wakes before our 6.30 get-up, I feed him in case he?ll go back off (rare). If it?s after 6.00 I bring him into bed & cuddle him in the dark with no eye contact, no talking until 6.30. Before 6.00 or if he?s cross, I?ll rock in the chair with him in the dark until he either goes to sleep or it?s time to get up. He sometimes cries, but he?s fed, being cuddled and soothed so I know it?s just him being cross, not in distress.

At get-up time, expose her to daylight if possible, artificial light if not. Some people suggest taking them outside for 10 mins a.s.a.p. after waking as daylight is one of the best ways to set the body clock.

Then I?d try for naps at set times, with 15 mins? variation either way as necessary. For babies who wake around 7 am, naps at 9am and 1pm work well, which is what I?ve gone for. Or you can try the 2-3-4 pattern: first nap 2 hours after get-up time, second nap 3 hours after waking, bedtime 4 hours after waking. DS?s is currently 2.5?3.5?3.5ish but I think his first nap needs to be earlier. You?ll have to tweak things, but they?re good places to start.

Once you?ve found a time when she falls asleep, stick with it and see if it helps. Obviously if she?s dropping to sleep before then, she may need to nap sooner, but by doing naps by the clock I discovered that some of DS?s ?tired signs? were ?not yet tired? signs, and some were overtired signs.

Both of these patterns assume that babies sleep for around an hour in the morning and two hours at lunchtime. I was hesitant about using this pattern as DS was a 30 min sleeper, but putting him on this schedule was enough to get him sleeping for longer at lunchtime, much to my amazement.

If a nap is missed, keep her awake till the next nap time, but bring it forward a bit. For example, DS only slept for 20 mins for his morning yesterday, which I?d class as sufficiently short not to count as a nap. He then fell asleep in the pushchair at 12.00 (not 1pm) and he stayed asleep for a lunchtime nap of nearly 2 hours. (This is the boy who generally refuses to sleep in the pushchair.)

The early waking will probably continue for a while. There?s a period when 3 naps is too many, but 2 isn?t enough, so they are generally overtired and wake early. Even when DS woke at 5, I didn?t let him nap until 9am so that we kept going with the same nap rhythm. An earlier than usual bedtime will help reduce overtiredness. I started putting DS to bed between 6.00 and 6.30pm instead of 7.00. A few weeks in, he?s sleeping closer and closer to 6.30am.

On the napping in the cot thing, for the first week or so I just let DS stay on my lap (and re-fed every time he woke) so that we could get the routine established. It was really, really frustrating not to be able to get anything done with half my day, but it was definitely worth it. Once he was reliably going to sleep, I started putting him in his cot and patting him after I?d fed to sleep. If he woke, I?d pick him up & re-feed or jiggle till he went off again. If I had a couple of failed attempts I?d let him stay on my lap.

Once I could put him in his cot, he?d wake after 10 mins. I sat by his cot and patted him every time he stirred, as it was the only way he?d stay asleep. (I find patting his back when he?s on his side / front works much better than patting his chest when he?s on his back.)

He got better and better at staying asleep and now he will usually stay down till the end of the sleep cycle without any intervention from me. I can now get on with things around the house as long as I'm ready to go and re-settle after the end of each cycle.

The books say that if you consistently re-settle between sleep cycles, they will get the hang of doing it themselves so I'm hoping it will work for us soon.

At night, I?ve been trying to settle him without feeding whenever possible, and certainly during the evening. Patting works if I get to him fast enough, or picking him up & bouncing him in my arms. Some people find they need their DH to do this or the baby expects to be fed.

The combination of better naps during the day and not feeding at every waking in the night has really helped. He still wakes after the first 2-3 sleep cycles in the evening, but after that he is usually only up once for a feed around 2am / 4am.

Sorry this is so long-winded but I find it hard to be concise! Of course, feel free to ignore any of it, but it has worked for us.

DS now gets more daytime sleep than at any time since 3 months old and his nights are better than they have been for months, although the evening wakings still leave something to be desired. Mind you, last night he slept from bedtime till 3am - the first time for at least two months that he's stayed asleep for the whole evening!

On the teething thing, I've found that as DS gets more teeth, they seem to bother him less as they're coming through (he now has 6). DS's sleep went downhill when teething started too, right up until the last few weeks. Hopefully that side of things should settle down for your DD before too long.

Wow, angeldog, that's amazing info!! I think you may have just saved my sanity!!

DS (10mo) has been waking in the middle of the night and crawling around, standing up and crying a bit. I've resorted to feeding him back to sleep as it seems the quickest way to get him back to sleep (and me). I'm not sure he needs it though, but if I try patting him, as soon as I leave, he just wails again. I think teeth may be a factor too.

Was feeling a bit down about it all this morning, especially when my Mum commented that 'he should be sleeping through by now, the little monkey'.

Anyway, I'm going to have a proper read of your posts and see if we can improve things a bit.

Ah, it's not just me, I nicked most of the ideas from IgglyBuff and the book Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. :)

The whole napping at set times thing sounds a bit mad but does seem to work for some babies at least. IgglyBuff had a description of it on this thread

I think the wanting to play at night is a variety of things. Sometimes it's overtiredness, which I think was our original problem. Sometimes it's developmental - wanting to practice new skils. And sometimes I think DS seems like he wants to play when he's actually woken because he wants feeding.

I think with the patting you sometimes have to keep going till they're properly asleep until they get the hang of it a bit more.

at your mum. Don't listen to her!

Thanks AngelDog and IgglyBuff

Thank you, so, so much for this AngelDog (and IgglyBuff).

Will definately have a go but sounds like it takes awhile before you start to see any improvement? Suppose it was too much to hope for a quick solution. We are visiting relatives this weekend, on holiday the week after that and then DD starts nursery the next week.

Will start tomorrow though and do the best I can.

Hmm, it's tough when you have things on. Both sets of our parents have spent a fair bit of time sitting downstairs while I sit upstairs with DS on my lap!

Sadly I don't think there's a quick fix other than nap scheduling and controlled crying, but I think CC probably takes longer to work for naps than at night.

Just looked at previous posts and we've been working on it exactly 3 weeks. Last night DS woke once in the evening (hungry as hadn't fed properly at bedtime due to overtiredness) and once in the middle of the night for a feed. The night before he only woke once for a feed! 3 weeks ago he was waking around 6-7 times a night and up for long stretches too.

However, we saw improvement with naps the first time I put him on a 9am and 1pm schedule, and there was some immediate improvement in the night with not feeding him each time he woke. He did have a fixed getting-up time already, though, so that probably helped.

i am going to try your methods too angeldog!!my10 month old use to do 7 hour stretches now the most he does is 3 hour sleeps then wants a feed or wakes-my eldest starts school next week so its intervention time for baby!! he currently has his naps back to front- 2hours in the morning and 40 mins to 1 hour in the aftrnoon-bit both on me! i am goign to try him in the cot- currnetly his schedule is up at 7, nap after school run 930 just before til 11 ish (give take 15 mins), then next nap asleep by 2- bed and asleep by 640.

Morning! Well the good news was that I didn't need to feed DS to sleep in the night. Still got disturbed a couple of times but managed to pat him back to sleep.

I did however wake once imagining that I could hear a baby screaming (but he wasn't) .

Bad news.... I could not get him to nap at 9.30amm for love nor money - in fact he is still awake now. I gave up as he just get standing up in his cot and screaming. Even after a walk in the pushchair - no joy.

Still, I keep trying...perhaps I should have gone for 9am but he didn't really wake till 7.30am (after going back to sleep after a feed early on).

Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child says that a younger baby (4 months?) takes about 3 days to get used to a new way of doing naps/night sleep. It takes an older and/or overtired baby a bit longer, but I doubt we're talking weeks and weeks.

The more consistent you are the faster they get the hang of it. I wasn't as consistent as I might have been so it could have been quicker I think.

I find it amazing how quickly DS has got the hang of going to sleep at set times. Today I struggled to get him to have the first nap, so it was rather late and he woke at 10.20 instead of his usual 9.30. He still happily went to sleep for his next nap at the usual 1pm, though. :) You'd expect that he needed the second nap later than usual, but no.

I'll pop back a bit later with a few more bits & pieces from HSHHC about nap timings, but it'll depend on whether I can get as far as clearing the day before yesterday's laundry off the kitchen floor. I'm a bit behind with the housework.