Xenophobia, homophonic, transphobia

[spstchmu]

Are you gonna do anything about it? Like, i know the line is that shoving the madness in the feminism board means it's not transphobia. And I know it's been done to death but I'm sick of it. It's not acceptable. Xenophobia, racism and homophobia also increasing.
And no. I won't leave. This is the biggest forum of its kind and it needs to represent and respect us all. And care that it's not.

There's no point. Seriously. If you disagree you get called a man anyway.

People are free to post anything they want.

The people with these other views always shout 'it never happens' but never 'if it happens that's a good thing' with their views and evidence to back it up.

If you have those then you are free to post them are you not? Why is it a good thing that men are locked in cells with women? I'd love these other views that thinks this is a great idea as I'd love to know why they think this.

Aww, won’t anyone please think of the sad Menz in frocks who are desperate to get undressed in front of biological women and wave their willies around. 🤮

Case in point!

It is an anomaly because there are 2 sexes.

So not 'Human being are complex organisms and scientists have known for decades that sex isn’t always binary' as you originally stated.

Pull the other one @AccidentallyWesAnderson. You must have seen some of the shockingly transphobic comments all over MN - I am consistently amazed they are allowed to stand.

And the number of times I have been @-ed on this thread by people feeling the need to call me out because I disagree with the shoehorning also makes my point. It's not a debate here, it's a single-issue dictatorship.

I am going to concentrate on work now, not ignoring anyone. Partly because I am busy at work, partly because I am bored bored bored of the whole damn thing now.

Hi all,

We’ve been reading this thread and wanted to respond to some of the points raised.

We do take racism, xenophobia, homophobia and other forms of hate speech seriously. We do not allow hate speech on Mumsnet and will always delete it when it’s reported. There are around 25,000 posts a day on Mumsnet, so we can’t pre-read every one; we rely on users to report posts they believe break our guidelines.

At the same time, we don’t remove posts simply because they are contentious, strongly expressed, or because other posters disagree with them. Some posts are reported to us as hate speech when, under our guidelines, they don’t meet that threshold.

Mumsnet is unusual in being a part of the internet largely dominated by women, and specifically designed for people to discuss anonymously the things in their lives that are troubling them, whether those concerns are about themselves, their families or their children. We think that’s a large part of its value: people can discuss things on Mumsnet that they may not feel able to discuss elsewhere online. That can mean hosting conversations around difficult or polarised issues where people have strong views about what should and shouldn’t be said. Our main principle is that, where something is not hate speech and people are engaging in good faith, we would rather let the conversation play out. Many Mumsnet users have had their minds changed by being exposed to alternative points of view they may not come across in the algorithmic filter bubbles of other platforms.

There is a fair point in this thread about derailment. We know posters can find it frustrating when the same topics are brought into threads where they weren’t the original subject. Please do report this when you see it, particularly where it seems deliberately inflammatory or intended to drag discussion away from the issue at hand.

Reporting specific posts is always the quickest and most effective way to flag something to us. A Site stuff thread like this is useful context, but reports give us the actual posts to review.

Thanks,
MNHQ

@Lexibletheflexible Thanks for coming on here and explaining your point of view.

Personally I believe sex is binary, and I don’t want transwomen in women’s changing rooms, prisons, sports, rape services, or women’s shelters. I don’t want to have to accept intimate care from a transwoman. But I do want to understand why others think differently. It’s really hard to have these discussions in real life as the atmosphere gets toxic so quickly.

It’s true that I have never encountered some of those scenarios. The reason people with my views stand up for them anyway is because we know there are women within those scenarios who don’t have the voice to speak up.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Firstly, OP and other supporters of the trans movement are the ones trying to shut down other opinions on the grounds of transphobia. They want posts and threads deleted because they find them offensive.

Secondly and most importantly, it's impossible to discuss the points OP raises without understanding what is actually transphobic and what is legitimate debate around important issues. Saying for example that Transwomen are biological men could be seen as factually accurate but also transphobic by some. Do we delete these comments? If so, what other facts do we start to delete because we don't like them and what is allowed in their place? Who determines what is acceptable and unacceptable? You? OP? How can we debate anything when everything is offensive to somebody? I don't think WASPI women should be compensated, am I ageist or sexist? I want immigration controlled, am I racist? We must never allow legitimate debate etc be shut down because some are offended.

So shocking no one appears to be able to recite them.

Thats fair enough, and you are free to advocate for more private spaces. However, that has no bearing on whether communal spaces should be female only, which most women and girls have as a basic expectation.

I don't. Never have. Always used communal changing rooms with cubicles, some single, some family. In fact, the only time I have seen a naked person in a changing room was one strange woman who showered naked in the communal showers.

She was asked to leave.

I do have that expectation though and have been in all female communal changing rooms with people getting changed often. I don't feel comfortable with biological men in these spaces so wouldn't be able to use them if transwomen were admitted. Why are my rights automatically trumped by transwomen wanting to use the space? Why am I automatically the one that has to give way?

Well I'm the one who has to give way because I don't want to see ANY stranger naked. So just would never use a changing room that meant I would have to.

Plus I had sons, there would be no way my small sons would be going into a changing room alone.

Just use what suits you as a person.

What suits you, wouldn't suit me. We're all different.

Except there is often finite space and options. Not everywhere has the facilities that allow people to dress or toilet in the way they choose. So a communal female changing room admitting men and women would mean that neither you or I could use it. The majority of women want single sex space without trans women in them. We are supposed to live in a democracy. Why can't this just be accepted? It's not perfect and won't make everyone happy but that is true of virtually every issue in society. Why is it always the ones involving women's rights where people seem desperate to argue the minority case can trump the majority?

The communal changing rooms I have always used are for both men and women. Hence the FAMILY cubicles. So I have ALWAYS used changing rooms which admit both men and women. All cubicles.

No rights of mine hindered in the process.

Cubicles require a significant amount more space than an open changing rooms. They aren't practical in lots of cases. I assume you don't do much sport?

Hi @BeckyAMumsnet

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Can you clarify what would fall under hate speech per your guidelines please?

If I may use the trans example (given the way this thread has gone), your guidelines state:

"We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated."

There are quite a lot of posts which make sweeping negative generalisations about trans people being fetishists, predators, or mentally ill. There are also quite a lot of posts which stray into the derogatory area, such as comments on appearance.

(This is completely aside from the civil and sensible discussion and agreement that TW are not women.)

I appreciate that MN's stance is to go on a case by case basis, but sometimes it appears to me that the above aren't being enforced at all.

Why else would I be in a changing room?

As said, if you don’t like the configuration of your changing rooms then complain to the service provider. The point is that any female only changing rooms should be just that, female only.

I do like it. Family changing rooms. I have no idea how you took it that I don't like the changing rooms I use.

I said I wouldn't use the ones where people strip and shower naked in public.

The ones you use.

So I don't.

Sex is one of the few true binaries in nature.

What you are talking about are sex development disorders. These are disorders of either the female sex or of the male sex.

They are not evidence of there being more than two sexes.

Hi @StillgotmyiPod the posts you describe are likely to break our guidelines. But as mentioned earlier, we may not see them unless they're reported.

You’re talking about yourself here - did you know that?

I doubt anyone is likely to see a vagina in a changing room unless you have a speculum and a head torch. A vagina is an internal muscular structure. They’re quite hard to see in the wild.