Concerns about racism

[PandoraSocks]

Hi there Mumsnet HQ

Many of us are concerned about the uptick of hatred, xenophobia and racism on the site over the past couple of weeks. Most of the bigotry is focused on asylum seekers. MNHQ will of course delete racism etc. if reported, but this has gone way beyond a few hateful posts.

Links below to three examples of threads which have descended into real nastiness.

Cheers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/5385273-civil-unrest-whats-really-going-on?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5385914-do-you-believe-there-will-be-a-civil-war?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5386073-to-be-so-fed-up-amd-disheartened-with-all-the-xenophobia?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

There is not a lot of considered comment about the government of Israel. That’s just rubbish.

What you get is people hiding behind what they claim to be purely political comment to make racist comments about Jews, via the existence of Israel.

Condemnation of 7th October is inevitably used as a smokescreen, where it’s even expressed at all, for objection to the fact and origins of Israel altogether.

In any event, the many antisemites on MN just switch to supposed historical grievance against Israel, and therefore Jews, when Israeli self-defence and survival in the face of wicked Iranian-backed terrorism is mentioned.

OK, serious question: do you think the Israeli government's actions in Gaza are entirely reasonable and proportionate?

Do you think Palestinians living in the West Bank are treated fairly by the Israeli authorities?

I’m a Zionist, and no I don’t (I know you didn’t ask me).

No they are not treated fairly.

But you're a zionist in the proper sense of the word. You aren't a zealot. That's a massive difference. I can respect your position. I can't respect the people who contort themselves into pretzels defending the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza.

We’re all reading the same posts. Some of us on this thread think there are really, really bad posts out there. MN do not think those posts are as bad as we think they are. That’s all there is to it I think?

I think this sums it up, really @Inchworms. I think that is all there is to it, and it's rather depressing.

I think perhaps we are all going to have to accept that this is just how MN is going to be now, and if we want to carry on using the site, we need to be willing to tolerate a significant amount of racist content because MNHQ doesn't see an issue with it.

The real question is whether we as individuals want to carry on using the site on that basis. I'll readily admit that I'll find it hard to leave. I've been on the site for years and it will feel like a loss. But I'm not sure that it's the place for me any more. I will miss the many decent posters who are still here, but they are getting outnumbered now. And if MNHQ are not genuinely committed to tackling the problem, it's only going to get worse.

I think I'm going to have to find another way of wasting my time from now on.

Do you believe Jewish people have the right to a homeland, particularly after their treatment in WW2, in order to have the same rights as every other mainstream religion?

Well. I have just seen a post that has chilled me.

Pure hatred dressed up in facts.I have reported a few posts today and am not bothering reporting that one as I think little point as the poster knows exactly how to couch things.

Just ew.

But you must report it @PandoraSocks. Otherwise what has been the point of this thread?

Actually I'm deleting this as it's not what the thread is about.

No. But I don’t believe it’s worse than many other places of tension and conflict in the world.

No. But I don’t believe it’s worse than many other places of tension and conflict in the world.

However, the obsessive, single-minded condemnation of Israel on MN (not you necessarily) and more generally shows me very clearly that Jews and their homeland are the focus of deep-seated bigotry.

No. But I don’t believe it’s worse than many other places of tension and conflict in the world.

I wonder what your basis for comparison is?

PP posted about it first, not me.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves i know exactly what you mean!

Some of the niche boards are still good. I also think it’s a good place to see… whatever it is that’s happening… cos I don’t really see it in my day to day life otherwise and it feels like something I should know exists. But I do think I should probably stop giving it clicks.

Yes. I decided not to continue the derailment.

Because I can see exactly why MNHQ would not want to delete it and I can actually understand why.

Deleted due to accidental double posting!

Did you double post? Anyway I agree 100%.

I will take some time to think about it.

The major problem with 'challenge it on the thread' model of dealing with disinformation/problematic posts which MNHQ rely in is that it relies on people who aren't paid to do a fucking awful job.

It's not a case of 'oh you've got your facts wrong, vaccines don't cause autism' (to deliberately pick an example entirely disconnected from this thread), and the poster retreats in shame, it's a case of having to post over, and over, and over repeatedly on different threads to posters who can be increasingly belligerent and insulting 'oh so you're happy for babies to die'. The posters can also as well as being obnoxious, be extremely persistent and prolific (particularly the astroturfing type).

So people give up, and the 'challenge it on the thread' model becomes 'this shit is totally left unchallenged because no one left can be arsed' model. It's particularly bad when you - as someone who has been incredibly involved in this topic - knows when a poster is prolifically posting in bad faith, report to MNHQ and say 'this poster needs looking at' and you get the 'thanks for your post, we are looking into it' and them absolutely nothing happens.

Or training need.

it’s sickening to read hateful
posts, to report and they still stand.

The day conformation is a big problem imo

Exactly this.

What is ‘bad faith’? Every underhand tactic described here is used by posters on both sides of pretty much every argument. You can’t say something is only a sincerely held belief if you agree with it, otherwise it’s ’bad faith’.

Completely agree with both of you.

Theres a thread today where nobody who disagrees with some fairly contentious posts has replied. I don’t think that there’s nobody on mumsnet who disagrees with it. I think people are just tired.

If someone is deliberately posting the same misinformation over and over again repeatedly despite having being picked up on it multiple times and not engaging with anyone who corrects them, then that's obviously posting in bad faith.

'this shit is totally left unchallenged because no one left can be arsed' model"

I think this is the danger. Then MN will just become a cess pit like X.

Although I suppose it will only be in certain parts of the boards. Hopefully the parts that help new mums, those in abusive relationships etc. will remain untarnished. But they may get drowned out.

This all may be a blip, though, and the posters who have been posting hate the past couple of weeks will eventually drift off. Especially as they are getting a fair bit of pushback.

I really hope so.