FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

FWR (aka Feminism: Sex and Gender Discussions) has been a godsend to me, from my time as a FWR ‘newbie’ onward. I’m very grateful to the core of intelligent, knowledgeable and caring women there for sharing their wit and wisdom.

Have you tried Feminism:Chat? That might be more your cup of tea. Please do give it a go, and see what you think. There’s also the Politics and In The News boards for topical issues.

It’s really quite difficult for me to comment further without your giving actual examples, I’m afraid.

I've experienced exactly the same. I find it a very hostile place with a clique who accuse you of being a man and trolling if you say anything against the grain.

I'm happy to avoid it but a lot of feminist posts are there that I want to respond to. They aren't anything to do with sex and gender.

When I have responded to them, I find the posting style of some members quite hostile. Once I was told that I was a waste of oxygen and accused of being from a particular group the forum doesn't like.

I spoke to MNHQ about removing posts that have nothing to do with sex and gender and putting them in the Feminism forum but they weren't interested.

FWR women do have reasons to be cautious & defensive.

There are a lovely group of transactivists known to us as the ‘Misogynist Monitors’ who take it on themselves to monitor our threads & report posts they don’t like, or screenshot them on social.

Some TRAs start threads just to harvest screenshots, or plop on with a ‘You’re all horrible!’ post & never come back. I’ve reported threads before because they ‘smelt wrong’ & they’ve been confirmed to be trolling.

A lot of us are also fighting for women’s sex-based rights & getting flack for it IRL, so yes, we can be wary of new posters.

I understand that this is a problem. What I don't understand is the persistent attacking, undermining, disparaging, humiliating, and discrediting of posters that do not share exactly the same views as they do. They cannot know if those posters are the ones you mention. It is more than likely they are not - they're just like me, wanting to find intellectual discussion but only getting bizarre pushback.

I'm glad it's been helpful to you.

I've tried Feminism Chat, but alas, it's quite lonely there. It doesn't get much traffic. I do use Politics though.

Is this intellectual discussion about the nature of gender identity and who should be allowed in women’s spaces?

Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist.

Can you give examples? I know hard when you've name-changed.

I would never do that because it's tedious - if it's one or two posters can you ignore them? It's tricky because a lot of posters are attracted to FWR purely to shit-stir or put people off posting there and it looks like they have succeeded here.

If someone is making a poor argument (calling you names rather than engaging) I try to ignore it. It happens a lot and is hard to ignore. But there is plurality of opinion there - though if you think a woman is "a person of either sex who has some qualities that I am unable to name but proprose that society use this nonexistent definition" you will not find many who agree with you.

Remember that sometimes tone is hard to get across, so a genuine question might begin to seem hostile if several posters are posting them to you.

As long as you are clear on what your position is, and can articulate it, you should be fine.

Btw if you have been posting for years then you may know that there is no such poster as "MNHQ" so tagging that name does nothing.

Just want to add that I, and many others, name-change frequently, so it's unlikely that just seeing a "new" name would mean anything in and of itself.

Do you have a particular viewpoint you wish to share? Is it about bisexuality? I thought that was an interesting discussion - and no-one was called a man or TRA or whatever.

Maybe let's call this thread a 'safe space' where you can try and say what you are trying to say and we can engage with it?

@EmpressaurusKitty

Is this intellectual discussion about the nature of gender identity and who should be allowed in women’s spaces?

Generally, the standard of discussion is much higher than, say, AIBU. Issues like this interest me more. Are you trying to get me to name a specific issue on the board?

It's more than one or two - I'd say up to 10? As I said, I don't have any kind of odd fringe views. (And I wasn't on the bi thread.)

I’m saying that a lot of FWR regulars have been at the coalface on this issue for years & so are likely to be impatient at the idea of intellectual discussions on the topic.

Just realised this might seem unfriendly. I originally wrote "you should know" as in, I should tell you. Then I realised that might sound like I'm saying "you really ought to know by now" so in a rush I changed it to "may know".
Some of us are ND to some degree so posting quickly means I am direct but I never intend to be hostile (if I do, you'll know ). Anyway apologies if that sounded rude.

I'd agree that it can be a baptism of fire, if you post on the board with a different view - if you don't have a robust argument in defence of your view. I've never encountered hostility, but I have encountered impatience, exasperation, exhaustion and irritation when I've been especially stupid. Most of the time, they've clarified my thinking with patience, humour and the odd big sigh, I expect. Many of the posters have been fighting this battle for a decade or more, so know all the tricks The other side use, and are pretty tired of them, i imagine. Many have family members affected by the gender wars. Many are very very frightened for their children, grandkids, siblings.
The water is indeed choppy. Robust argument is fine, name calling or personal attacks are not. Report those, admin will be on it quickly.

You need to give examples of this please .

I post on here and don't see it. I see robust argument.

FWR already is heavily moderated. Anything seen as a personal attack is deleted under talk guidelines and posters can ultimately be banned.

If you are going on FWR to try to convince women that we should be kind and agree to the erosion of women's rights it is unlikely that, on those boards, many women will agree with you. The same if you are arguing for puberty blockers and a pathway to body modification surgery for children.

This is a general point, not directing it at anyone specific.

IME posters often say they're leaving a thread because women on FWR are all very mean to them about their opinions and we don't tolerate different views, but when you look back at their posts, they themselves have been incredibly rude and hostile to others on the thread from the start of their posts on the thread.

It's a common pattern I see. Suspect at least some of it is trolling, because it's quite unbelievably unselfaware if not.

I have seen this issue posted about before over the years and I don't really understand because I haven't seen it. I accept this could be me being blinkered and insensitive, but in my experience FWR is one of the few place on Mumsnet where feminist views are not attacked and disparaged. Try posting on other boards about VAWG, or beauty standards or the mental load for example!. @MarsScarlet-could you give some examples of what you mean on FWR,please?

Incidentally, this sort of post predates the whole gender critical/TWAW debate.

What I don't understand is the persistent attacking, undermining, disparaging, humiliating, and discrediting of posters that do not share exactly the same views as they do.
Personal attacks are not allowed on any of the boards.

When you said discrediting do you mean they have provided scientific links to disapprove what you are thinking? I find they do that a lot and it really hits home how women have been pushed aside. Whether it's pay, marriage or whatever.

They also think/believe women are biological females based on reality and science, and if you don't then you are always going to get them asking why you think it should have biological men in it. I think you should have robust arguments backed by science and peer reviewed studies if you are going to go against the majority of society.

I always felt safe and happy on FWR until the bi thread. The rampant biphobia on that thread made me question quite a lot of my own beliefs surrounding T. So good on those posters (some not all), by vocalising that they really are trying to force the B out of LGB, they've made me realise some people on FWR are just trying to systematically "other" and push out anyone who isn't themselves and are hiding behind the justification of "womens rights". Not all (or even most) but a very vocal minority.

The original board was split into two because there were demands for a safe space for those who 'hold a differing view'. It was set up as Feminism Chat. No one uses it.

Instead, there are frequent demands that Mumsnet tell off the naughty ladies for being 'mean' on the board set up specifically to discuss sex and gender issues.

It's quite transparent.

It's hard to discuss this without examples. But 10 posters is a tiny minority of the board, so you can see why it's perhaps not helpful to suggest that this is a problem with the entire board. I've definitely butted heads with a few and you get to know a couple of idiosyncratic posters- some are on their own planet but do sometimes provide interesting accounts, some I see as abrasive but if I hold my own I don't really care what they say about my views. Either it's legitimate disagreement or it's pretending I've said something I haven't, which most sensible people are able to see.

I would love to encourage you to get stuck in, but tbh a lot of the threads move faster than I can read these days, and yes we get a lot of "visitors" derailing things which can make it even more disheartening to post when they've started a bunfight.

Do carry on posting in Feminism Chat and I'll try and look there more!

This has been the case for many years. I hid all the FWR topics ages ago.

So did I. It's a shame as there were some interesting threads.

Other websites, boards, and topics are available, but you apparently want to post on this one, to discuss specific topics with these posters, only you wish to tone police them?

You may be better off with ChatGP, really.

Agree with the OP, it's a shame. I was a terrible Be Kinder when I joined MN in about 2011 and learned a lot from patient FWR posters. I get that it's incredibly annoying to go through Feminism 101 patiently day after day, and obviously there are quite a few trolls too.

But just rudely shutting down naive new posters results in them thinking that all GCs are horrid and never returning to the board. There is no obligation to post a response!