How to discuss BBC 100 women list?

[BernardBlackMissesLangCleg]

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

I like the look of ovarit. Going to take a look around. Thanks!

Are you allowed to use dictionary definitions for people in weird cult like religions over on ovarit? Or do you need to jump through weird hoops to make sure you don't 'offend' any men?

I've just been and had a look, they are saying all sorts! Some stuff is getting deleted, but it's a proper argument debate going on

@allmywhat

The use of TIM is a term that is expressly mentioned in

It's been the case ever since www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy was introduced.

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but our moderation team will most likely delete these expressions if we feel they're being used in a deliberately inflammatory way. It's also discussed further in the guidelines.

Another important bit that I think applies to several posters on this thread (not getting at you)

*One thing we can simply no longer tolerate, however, is rudeness and aggression towards our mod team who are doing their utmost to allow this difficult but important debate to go ahead on Mumsnet, sometimes in highly stressful situations. So please do bear that in mind.

🤣

I cannot fucking BELIEVE that got deleted. But it's so beautifully Kafkaesque that I'm not even mad.

This is actually insane; there's are a bunch of people here confused about why a thread got deleted and no one is allowed to tell them. I was just trying to tell people what the phrase is that they aren't allowed to say without actually saying it! I genuinely thought it was a good effort.

I'll just reiterate that the phrase in question is liberally thrown around on Ovarit. And they don't play Humpty Dumpty with the dictionary there either.

Oh thanks Bore! I didn't know that the phrase was mentioned in the rules, I only saw pages of people being confused about it because no one was telling them what the problem was. I could have saved myself a lot of effort by just linking if I'd known.

And also, since my post was deleted and no one has any idea what I said, I would just like to add the following.

Another important bit that I think applies to several posters on this thread (not getting at you)

I didn't take it as an attempt to get at me, since it doesn't apply to anything I said.

Oh, that looks a bit passive-aggressive! Sorry, really didn't mean it that way.

The , I mean. We're crossing posts here due to my slow typing.

lol I would like to return your smiley santa but I'm now worried about an escalating spiral where neither of us knows if the other one thinks we're being passive-aggressive.

Here he is and he is sincere.

Poor old Brian! He wasn't allowed to identify out of his fate.

I'd still like to know the answer to my question: Do you censor Jews for saying that Jesus was not the messiah?

Am I allowed to say something fundamental to my faith, that directly contradicts something fundamental to another faith?

I wonder if it would be ok to refer to XX people and XY people in discussions like this.

Or would some object to that?

@AnkleDeep

I wonder if it would be ok to refer to XX people and XY people in discussions like this.

Or would some object to that?

You will immediately get posters citing very rare DSD's such as Swyers Syndrome as 'proof' that not everyone is XX or XY, which strictly speaking is true but not in the 'sex is a spectrum' type of way they mean.

@PikesPeaked

Poor old Brian! He wasn't allowed to identify out of his fate.

I'd still like to know the answer to my question: Do you censor Jews for saying that Jesus was not the messiah?

Am I allowed to say something fundamental to my faith, that directly contradicts something fundamental to another faith?

Yes. I want to know this too. I want to know how other protected beliefs which directly contradict each other are treated. What other protected beliefs have restraints put upon them and why. Is it only transwomen who have a special protection as to their identity and feelings?

I used to spend quite a bit of time on the philosophy, religion & spirituality board. There were some pretty robust debates - no personal attacks obviously, but iirc generalisations were mostly ok.

I think the special rules for us biological women should be revised in view of the Forstater judgement, and in recognition of the aggression and abuse that we have had to put up with when we mention anything that might hurt men’s feelings. We are upset and depressed nearly all the time about what is happening to us and our mothers and daughters and now we will no longer be kind or whatever it is that is expected.

@catzwhiskas

I think the special rules for us biological women should be revised in view of the Forstater judgement, and in recognition of the aggression and abuse that we have had to put up with when we mention anything that might hurt men’s feelings. We are upset and depressed nearly all the time about what is happening to us and our mothers and daughters and now we will no longer be kind or whatever it is that is expected.

What happens when you say too many words that men don't like, is that you end up being banned and thus isolated from other women.

And it then affects your mental health when you can't talk to anyone about it.

It's a wonder more women haven't lost it and gone on rampages.

It looks like the talk guidelines have been revised - they weren't pinned to the top of the board when I went to find them yesterday and there is a couple of wording changes which I've noticed, including a mention of biology and research being allowed to be discussed. I am confused (and I can see that others are too) how this fits in with a statement by MNHQ earlier on this thread which said - 'We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex'. I genuinely don't know which wording would be allowed in a discussion with someone who is stating as fact that human beings can change sex or discussion about who can access single sex spaces, for example.

I asked MNHQ to consider repinning the Guidelines as they were a bit hard to find and newer posters weren't always aware that they existed.

I looked at them yesterday and again today and don't think they have changed.

Yes I noticed they were up there. Still need revising in view of legal judgements. Shedmistress yes I know . However there are always replacements if some of us fall by this particular wayside.

'We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex'

For those who don't want to wade through a lot of waffle, this is the message: "Don't refer to transwomen as male, men or having penises because it hurts their feelings".

It's just really quite awkward because they are male. We all know it. They know it. Mumsnet knows it. But we can't say it. Even as our rights and privacies are eroded. We mustn't say it. Men's hurt feelings are more important than women's rights.