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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

How to discuss BBC 100 women list?

232 replies

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 07:53

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/12/2021 07:58

Yes I’d really like to know that too. It is a fact that TW are biological men otherwise what are they transitioning from & it is a fact that TW ie men have been included on a list of women

Why can’t we discuss this factual issue?

SpindlesWinterWhorl · 07/12/2021 08:04

I didn't even know the threads had briefly existed!

Surely we should be able to discuss this topic in a Forstater-compliant way? That is, discussing a newsworthy item within the context of freedom of expression and protected belief, but without harassing people at work.

BaronessBomburst · 07/12/2021 08:06

I think we should discuss the list of 100 trans people and wonder why there are 98 women on it.......
Fancy all those women invading trans spaces! Shock

SpindlesWinterWhorl · 07/12/2021 08:18

Did the threads perhaps get sabotaged so no sensible discussion could take place resulting in the Swiss cheese effect followed by deletion? That's a very annoying tactic.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 08:20

@SpindlesWinterWhorl

Did the threads perhaps get sabotaged so no sensible discussion could take place resulting in the Swiss cheese effect followed by deletion? That's a very annoying tactic.
nah - just 'poof'
OP posts:
OhDear2200 · 07/12/2021 08:23

I did not see any comment that could be vaguely understood as transphobic.

Please @MNHQ don’t alienate those or us who come here for open discussions.

OhDear2200 · 07/12/2021 08:23

Also considering the batshitery on other topics this seems very mild!!!

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 08:24

you do wonder what goes through the minds of the people who report the threads and the MNHQ staff who delete them

'I've silenced some women talking about the default pull to always talk about men and never talk exclusively about women, go me'?

'I've silenced some people who don't share my beliefs, go me'?

The world is full of nutcases, so I'm pretty 'meh' about them reporting those threads

MNHQ actually taking those reports seriously is a different matter though. they present themselves as a serious company

OP posts:
TheOccupier · 07/12/2021 08:26

Thanks for starting this thread @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg - I'd like to know too.

MamDancer · 07/12/2021 08:28

@BaronessBomburst

I think we should discuss the list of 100 trans people and wonder why there are 98 women on it....... Fancy all those women invading trans spaces! Shock
Outrageous! Shock
Fullyhuman · 07/12/2021 08:29

I’d like to know too

Shedmistress · 07/12/2021 08:33

You can talk about the women as much as you like.

Just don't mention the [redacted].

IHateCoronavirus · 07/12/2021 08:40

Following both threads with interest

Helleofabore · 07/12/2021 08:41

Let’s hope the third thread is the trick.

MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 08:45

Hi all, we took a couple of threads down earlier - one for breaking talk guidelines and the other because it was a thread about a deleted thread.

Regarding the modding of the first thread - it was the title that broke guidelines. It's mentioned in the deletion message:
'We've taken this thread down because the title doesn't meet the standards of civil debate outlined in our Talk guidelines'.

Here's the relevant section:
We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex.

MangoBiscuit · 07/12/2021 08:52

"... people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected..."

So you will be taking down all threads where users repeatedly use the term cis to describe people who aren't, and who continue when asked not to?

IntemperateSpirits · 07/12/2021 09:02

if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex

So we can't say transwomen are men? Is that what it boils down to? Because We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male means we can say it ... but then you say we can't. We can say it, but only in a certain secret-squirrel way? Help me out here.

Cuck00soup · 07/12/2021 09:09

@MichaelMumsnet when these situations arise, could you contact the OP and adjust the thread title perhaps?

Or it looks like a valid conversation is being prevented.

EMotion · 07/12/2021 09:11

So we can say that transwomen are born male, it we can’t say transwomen are men?

Wow.

MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 09:13

@IntemperateSpirits we'd use this section of the guidelines:

We'll continue to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, taking tone and context into account. We'd be unlikely to delete if it's said in the context of a civil discussion of biology.

If it’s used on principle rather than to express a specific point, we’d likely delete it on the basis that it undermines civil debate^.

MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 09:14

[quote Cuck00soup]@MichaelMumsnet when these situations arise, could you contact the OP and adjust the thread title perhaps?

Or it looks like a valid conversation is being prevented. [/quote]
Sure, that's also an option.

TheOccupier · 07/12/2021 09:21

@MichaelMumsnet

Hi all, we took a couple of threads down earlier - one for breaking talk guidelines and the other because it was a thread about a deleted thread.

Regarding the modding of the first thread - it was the title that broke guidelines. It's mentioned in the deletion message:
'We've taken this thread down because the title doesn't meet the standards of civil debate outlined in our Talk guidelines'.

Here's the relevant section:
We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex.

What a mealy-mouthed response. I don't give a shit if a small group of offence-seekers "feel unwelcome". As a gender-critical radfem I am constantly made to feel unwelcome in both online and offline spaces. I'm a grown-up, so I deal with it. Who does Mumsnet think its audience is anyway?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2021 09:24

@MichaelMumsnet I didn't see the title, but obviously the entire point is that many women on the feminist board don't agree that biological males should be on a list of women. They need to be able to use the scientific, correct sex terms.

AnkleDeep · 07/12/2021 09:29

I eagerly anticipate the civil debate rule to apply across the site.

I suggest HQ begins by looking at posts aimed at stepmothers. Which are often very uncivil and verging on abusive.

Or does this rule only apply when discussing trans issues? Clarity on this would be appreciated.

MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 09:31

@MangoBiscuit Yes, we look at the use of this type of term in context - but if someone is being goady/uncivil then we'd delete.

@TheOccupier Our guidelines have been in place since June 2018. We're convinced that it's possible to host discussions around sex and gender within the terms of civil debate.