How to discuss BBC 100 women list?

[BernardBlackMissesLangCleg]

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

Yes I’d really like to know that too. It is a fact that TW are biological men otherwise what are they transitioning from & it is a fact that TW ie men have been included on a list of women

Why can’t we discuss this factual issue?

I didn't even know the threads had briefly existed!

Surely we should be able to discuss this topic in a Forstater-compliant way? That is, discussing a newsworthy item within the context of freedom of expression and protected belief, but without harassing people at work.

I think we should discuss the list of 100 trans people and wonder why there are 98 women on it.......
Fancy all those women invading trans spaces!

Did the threads perhaps get sabotaged so no sensible discussion could take place resulting in the Swiss cheese effect followed by deletion? That's a very annoying tactic.

@SpindlesWinterWhorl

Did the threads perhaps get sabotaged so no sensible discussion could take place resulting in the Swiss cheese effect followed by deletion? That's a very annoying tactic.

nah - just 'poof'

I did not see any comment that could be vaguely understood as transphobic.

Please @MNHQ don’t alienate those or us who come here for open discussions.

Also considering the batshitery on other topics this seems very mild!!!

you do wonder what goes through the minds of the people who report the threads and the MNHQ staff who delete them

'I've silenced some women talking about the default pull to always talk about men and never talk exclusively about women, go me'?

'I've silenced some people who don't share my beliefs, go me'?

The world is full of nutcases, so I'm pretty 'meh' about them reporting those threads

MNHQ actually taking those reports seriously is a different matter though. they present themselves as a serious company

Thanks for starting this thread @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg - I'd like to know too.

@BaronessBomburst

I think we should discuss the list of 100 trans people and wonder why there are 98 women on it....... Fancy all those women invading trans spaces!

Outrageous!

I’d like to know too

You can talk about the women as much as you like.

Just don't mention the [redacted].

Following both threads with interest

Let’s hope the third thread is the trick.

Hi all, we took a couple of threads down earlier - one for breaking talk guidelines and the other because it was a thread about a deleted thread.

Regarding the modding of the first thread - it was the title that broke guidelines. It's mentioned in the deletion message:
'We've taken this thread down because the title doesn't meet the standards of civil debate outlined in our Talk guidelines'.

Here's the relevant section:
We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex.

"... people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected..."

So you will be taking down all threads where users repeatedly use the term cis to describe people who aren't, and who continue when asked not to?

if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex

So we can't say transwomen are men? Is that what it boils down to? Because We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male means we can say it ... but then you say we can't. We can say it, but only in a certain secret-squirrel way? Help me out here.

@MichaelMumsnet when these situations arise, could you contact the OP and adjust the thread title perhaps?

Or it looks like a valid conversation is being prevented.

So we can say that transwomen are born male, it we can’t say transwomen are men?

Wow.

@IntemperateSpirits we'd use this section of the guidelines:

We'll continue to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, taking tone and context into account. We'd be unlikely to delete if it's said in the context of a civil discussion of biology.

If it’s used on principle rather than to express a specific point, we’d likely delete it on the basis that it undermines civil debate^.

[quote Cuck00soup]@MichaelMumsnet when these situations arise, could you contact the OP and adjust the thread title perhaps?

Or it looks like a valid conversation is being prevented. [/quote]
Sure, that's also an option.

@MichaelMumsnet

Hi all, we took a couple of threads down earlier - one for breaking talk guidelines and the other because it was a thread about a deleted thread.

Regarding the modding of the first thread - it was the title that broke guidelines. It's mentioned in the deletion message:
'We've taken this thread down because the title doesn't meet the standards of civil debate outlined in our Talk guidelines'.

Here's the relevant section:
We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex.

What a mealy-mouthed response. I don't give a shit if a small group of offence-seekers "feel unwelcome". As a gender-critical radfem I am constantly made to feel unwelcome in both online and offline spaces. I'm a grown-up, so I deal with it. Who does Mumsnet think its audience is anyway?

@MichaelMumsnet I didn't see the title, but obviously the entire point is that many women on the feminist board don't agree that biological males should be on a list of women. They need to be able to use the scientific, correct sex terms.

I eagerly anticipate the civil debate rule to apply across the site.

I suggest HQ begins by looking at posts aimed at stepmothers. Which are often very uncivil and verging on abusive.

Or does this rule only apply when discussing trans issues? Clarity on this would be appreciated.

@MangoBiscuit Yes, we look at the use of this type of term in context - but if someone is being goady/uncivil then we'd delete.

@TheOccupier Our guidelines have been in place since June 2018. We're convinced that it's possible to host discussions around sex and gender within the terms of civil debate.