How to discuss BBC 100 women list?

[BernardBlackMissesLangCleg]

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

*So a discussion about 14 Canadian women shot and killed for being born female, and a key speaker at their memorial who likes posting pictures of guns on social media and who gave a mememe speech rather than talk about Male Violence towards Women and Girls, gets deleted.

And a discussion about a list of 97 women, 50 of whom are Afghan and cannot possibly identify out of their oppression, is deleted repeatedly.

I am furious. Why can't we talk about it?*

Exactly.

How can a thread about the massacre of women and one memorialising those women be deleted?

The ugliness was that a speaker at their memorial posted a picture of an individual with a gun tacitly targeting women, not that we talked about this.

@ButtonSister

Would it work if we referred to adult human females and males?

It will not work long term if MN keep the guidelines

We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male, and as ever, there is room for mods to exercise their individual judgment. But we think trans people will feel unwelcome if users habitually use a collective term which defines them by an aspect of their identity that they have explicitly rejected, so we’ll usually delete collective terms for trans people which centre on natal sex.

Male = natal sex of multiple living organisms
Man = natal sex of single living organism

Plenty of males now claim they are female and always were female.

There are multiple claims that having a State issued document proves that people with penis are female.

There are plenty of males starting to claim they are "cis" women because "transwoman" / "trans woman" defines them as other.

All this is doing is kicking the "word can game" down the road.

I understand why, as MN have to have a human make the decision to delete or not. Target mass reporting is an efficient method of economic terrorism, ... both sides etc..

@FindTheTruth that is such a weird thread. It started off with loads of posters with really supportive comments and links to advice and support organisations. First negative comment was 'don't ask here, they're all anti-trans' which was roundly refuted by both the OP and the other posters. Negative commenter then admits that the links given are helpful but that the rest of the posters are all nasty transphobes. Clearly had a agenda of their own as referred to a previous thread which I actually remember and on which there was one poster who made an unpleasant comment but was challenged by just about every other poster on that thread. Made no difference because clearly, all the posters are the same.

We are back to the usual problem.

We are not allowed to generalise about topics as that is offensive to the group of people being referred to.

We are not allowed to refer to specific people, as that is offensive to the person being referred to.

So a topic is banned while it's pretended that it can be discussedwithout being banned.

@Waitwhat23 MNHQ has been awful - I can't believe they'e calling 'self harm' promotion, support.

As you say, it was one poster goading with egregious harmful posts unrelated to the OP.

and worse the OP is vulnerable.

strikeout fail.

Oh well, who cares, this thread isn't long for this world anyway.

I'm really upset about the deletion of the Montreal massacre thread. Tbh I was a bit annoyed that it turned out more about some horrible self-promoting person than about the event itself... that should perhaps have been a different thread.

In all seriousness, read and weep

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_massacre

I've not received a response to why self harm promotion is ok on mumsnet. They've picked a side and now that side, I suspect, isn't feeling very comfortable. They'll need to double down and change the name of the site to parentsnet.com. I hope that url is available

As a pp commented, it's MNHQ sitting on the fence to ensure they are on the 'right side of history'. If the erosion of women's rights continues in the name of 'trans rights', they cannot be censured by TRA's because they can point to their rate of reports/deletions to show that 'transphobic' comments were deleted and 'civil debate' was the order of the day. On the other hand, if the tide turns and women's rights are upheld and restored, then they can point to the discussions and state their oft repeated view that 'they were one of the only places where such debate was allowed' (which is no longer true due to the rise of other sites such as Overit), even if such discussions were censored to the point where actual biological facts where unable to be stated (despite the Forstater result).

I had actually thought the moderation was becoming more reasonable after the Forstater result - there's been language used (factual language) which never would have flown this time last year. This week seems to have been a step back - I assume there has been some sort of co-ordinated attack by TRA's.

[quote ErrolTheDragon]I'm really upset about the deletion of the Montreal massacre thread. Tbh I was a bit annoyed that it turned out more about some horrible self-promoting person than about the event itself... that should perhaps have been a different thread.

In all seriousness, read and weep

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_massacre[/quote]
I graduated with an first class honours Engineering degree in 1989. I remember this massacre. It chilled me that women like me could be a target just for our sex
Shame on Canada.

MNHQ need to pop outside and look which way the wind is blowing at the moment.

[quote ErrolTheDragon]I'm really upset about the deletion of the Montreal massacre thread. Tbh I was a bit annoyed that it turned out more about some horrible self-promoting person than about the event itself... that should perhaps have been a different thread.

In all seriousness, read and weep

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_massacre[/quote]
when the gunman separated the 9 women in the engineering class from the 50 men, he said

You're women, you're going to be engineers. You're all a bunch of feminists. I hate feminists

Not been here long @LegoPandemic?

MichaelMumsnet is a man and has been doing a very good job of steering very stormy waters for some years now.

Mumsnet isn't a public service, it's a privately owned site and is one of the very few places where these discussions are allowed to take place. We know that it has been relentlessly targetted by MRAs and TRAs for this very reason. We know the tide has turned and I don't doubt that the targetting has got much worse as a result, because that's the vicious, vindictive modus operandi we have come to know so well.

I'd be willing to bet that MNHQ is deluged by reports from the usual suspects - several of whom are extremely litigious - which must be a drain on resources as well as a personal strain on individuals responding to them.

I didn't see the threads in question and I don't always agree with MNHQ's decisions but it's not that hard to adhere to guidelines whilst still getting our point across. We've done it for years and we're winning.

Frankly, I think some on this thread should be ashamed of themselves for the way they are addressing MNHQ in general and MichaelMumsnet in particular. Unless they are agents provocateur, of course, which wouldn't surprise me.

The Usual Suspects will be rubbing their thighs with glee while reading (and posting) on this thread. Don't play into their grubby hands.

“ We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born male….”

It’s not a “gender critical position” that TW are ‘born male’ - they are male, every cell in their body is male from conception to death. Humans can’t change sex.

We have to be able to deal in facts.

We are allowed to call god “sky fairy” or “invisible best friend” which I’m sure Is deeply offensive to many religious posters, but we have to tiptoe around the indisputable fact that TW are male, and the word in English for an adult human male is “man”.

MichaelMumsnet is a man and has been doing a very good job of steering very stormy waters for some years now.

At one fractious point in the past, I'm sure I recollect him saying that the womens rights board would only be shut down over his dead body.

That's correct, @ErrolTheDragon. He also banhammered Joss P with the 'Go well' message.

He did.

And he continues to do so. Note how he hasn't even begun to defend himself from the daftness. He doesn't nee to as those iof us who have been here for a while have seen him in action and, whilst disgreeing with the T+Cs , can agree that he is doing a bloody good job under increasingly fractious circumstances.

I don't care that he is male. We REALLY don't have to play into the MN = man hating, transphobic bigots trope. Do we?

It chilled me that women like me could be a target just for our sex
Shame on Canada.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Here's the 'over my dead body' thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3544319-TRAs-try-to-ruin-Mumsnet-survey?msgid=85901543#85901543

Nice to read all of that again

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

He did.

And he continues to do so. Note how he hasn't even begun to defend himself from the daftness. He doesn't nee to as those iof us who have been here for a while have seen him in action and, whilst disgreeing with the T+Cs , can agree that he is doing a bloody good job under increasingly fractious circumstances.

I don't care that he is male. We REALLY don't have to play into the MN = man hating, transphobic bigots trope. Do we?

No, we don't.

Censoring political speech by oppressed groups is rarely a good look. Women discussing and accurately describing their ongoing mistreatment by men for men's benefit in a patriarchal world is no exception.

Hyperbole.

Wrong thread, in fact