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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

372 replies

rockingchaircandle · 07/06/2020 09:45

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

OP posts:
SenecaFallsRedux · 07/06/2020 23:07

This is in RF I suppose because when all the anti-Meghan threads started, MNHQ made a decision to move them to RF. This is where most of them continue to exist. So I think this is the logical place for rocking to place the thread.

The best way to get MNHQ's attention to it is for someone to report a relevant post and ask them if they will look at the thread and address it. You don't have to be asking for a deletion to report a thread.

Cheetoz · 07/06/2020 23:11

OP you’re a white woman who has bullied posters, some of whom are WOC, off the boards - is that not racism?

You follow the same group of female posters and accuse them of terrible things just because you dislike their topic of conversation - is this not misogyny?

You attempt to shut down every thread about Meghan Markle, despite other posters enjoying discussing her - is this not disrespectful?

You have thrown the words ‘racist‘ and ‘misogynist’ at so many posters without having any idea about their backgrounds - is this not ignorant?

You attempt to control threads and conversation whilst preaching about free speech. You label any discussion of Meghan Markle that you don’t like as racist and in doing so you devalue racism.

SenecaFallsRedux · 07/06/2020 23:14

The OP has not bullied anyone off the threads. People leave of their own choosing. Debate is intense and sometimes personal. That does not make it bullying.

Cheetoz · 07/06/2020 23:21

Being repeatedly labelled the thing that disgusts you, the thing that could change your life if people in the real world thought it was true or even the thing you fear most because you yourself are a WOC, all because you want to gossip about a celebrity?

Getting to the point where a group of grown women don’t dare post for fear of having to defend themselves against relentless accusations. Of course posters have been driven off the boards. Just go to the cheap mumsnet and read about it for yourself.

rockingchaircandle · 08/06/2020 00:05

Cheetoz, this is getting old now. Unless you have some specific allegation to make, I'm not interested in these 'you've called everyone a racist' allegations. I've clearly not.

I've seen that weird website. It's clear that banned posters are missing MN and are trying to manipulate it from another website. That became clear on the OTBT thread. There's one particular poster who is obsessive, really strangely so. It's clear to see where the game playing is coming from.

OP posts:
ButteryPuffin · 08/06/2020 01:03

@rockingchaircandle

The following couldn't be quoted as the post already quoted me, so I've copied and pasted and bolded your text - just to be clear. The text in italics is from my previous post which you quoted in your response.

1. Itis a 'public forum' in rocking's view where you can't expect to express views and then not like others disagreeing with them.
2.'a privately owned forum that deletes loads of stuff and pretty much outright bans several topics and people' as chocolatety says.

These are not mutually exclusive.

This was precisely my point in the original post. If you're going to critique posts, please read them.

You can't post and expect not to be disagreed with as it is a public space.

I don't expect this and haven't said I did. I wrote about people (not just me) disliking being disagreed with (and who doesn't?) which is not the same as expecting no one to disagree. Again, I think you're replying to the post you imagine is there, not the one that actually is.

You need to set up a Whatsapp group for that.

No I don't. And not only because I don't expect to do the 'that' you are referring to (see above). Stop telling me or any of us what we should do or need to do. This is what comes across as silencing, which you keep denying you are doing. You also really dislike it when posters tell you what they think you should do, and you then tell them to stop. Apply your own rules of conduct to others. And please don't say 'this doesn't apply when it's racism' because my post to which you're replying here isn't racism. I will not be told by you to start a WhatsApp group or whatever else. MN moderate this space and they get to tell me if I'm not welcome to post here anymore, not you.

You can't post whatever you like, it is a moderated site.

I know (once again, see above) and I haven't said I can or want to.

(Once again, to anyone with this idea - I'm not saying that all criticism of Meghan is racist. Please don't hide behind this idea

Good to see you acknowledge this. If MN were to say to you, hypothetically, that they disagree with you over particular posts being racist, and that they see them as criticism which is not racist - what would your response be?

CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate · 08/06/2020 02:26

The OP has not bullied anyone off the threads

She absolutely has and somehow has self appointed herself as some sort of unpaid moderator of the threads.

Yes, and I was one of the WOC on the threads and there were a few others besides myself and they mostly lurked, because they didn't want to receive a backlash, but regardless, our experiences didn't matter, because all black people think the same don't you know? We have a homogenous world view and we support and love all other celebrities or noteworthy people of colour unequivocally, no matter what they do, simply by virtue of their melanin. We don't have the ability to discriminate by our preferences or our experiences or by character or form predjudices like other people from other ethnic groups do. It's one big happy club, where dissenting, critical or (deep breath) not nice thoughts simply doesn't happen.

And if it does happen well then you are an anomaly. We'll just ignore you.

So MN please tell me how it is ok for women of colour not to feel they can post dissenting views on a topic on a so called platform of free speech and ideas?

Tsukukuviri · 08/06/2020 02:36

This is a difficult topic to discuss without giving the many examples of racism. It then becomes a thread about a thread, but I will try. I hope @MNHQ understands that these examples are important because this is a discussion about a continuing problem.

The most egregious examples in previous discussions were the comparisons of Meghan and Harry with an organ grinder and his monkey, another compared MM with a rat up a drainpipe. There was an actual picture of a monkey posted, and also of a rat wearing a crown. The monkey post was so blatant it was deleted.

Those who don’t understand racism may think this is just funny comment but there is a long history of black people being compared to animals. Such posts are not a matter of “opinion”. They are racist.

Where @MNHQ seems to have a blind spot is subliminal and less overt racism. Elsewhere, posts are deleted for even just speculating about Madeleine McCann’s parents, and being “unkind” to other celebrities, particularly women.

What is not clear is why speculative posts about MM are left to stand. Particularly those with a racist subtext.

In the last two threads alone:

*MM was not trusted to be alone as she took photos of rooms and had to be followed from room to room. To those of us black women who have been followed around in shops (Yes, in the UK) because of our race, there is a racist subtext to this speculation: a black woman can’t be trusted to respect white property.

*MM hit Princess Charlotte. The subtext of this clearly outrageous speculation accusing her of assaulting a child, which is criminal behavior, and speculation which was allowed to stand, is that she is an aggressive and violent black woman, chiming in nicely with the “Straight Outta Compton “ stereotype of an African American woman.

*Many previous posts speculated about her mother being in prison. Incidentally it’s no shock to those of us who recognize subliminal racism that most posters here sympathize with her white parent, who, in his behavior and words, has shown himself to be the kind of narcissist with whom one would normally be advised here, on Relationships and AIBU, to go No Contact, but her black parent, who has been the soul of dignity and grace, and has not said a single word, has been discussed here as a felon and ex/convict.

*A previous thread had many posts speculating that MM was followed to a car by bodyguards, the innuendo being that she was trying to steal something or do something shady.

*Also in the last two threads, we had “MM tried to take pictures of Prince George to profit off them”. The racist (and classist) subtext is that she is not one of us, as only such a person would do such a thing. She is thus cast as greedy and grasping, a consistent theme on these threads when in fact, her (and Harry’s) spending is far eclipsed by other Royals over the years.

MM does not compare well with Michelle Obama etc. This is consistently harped on by posters like @Winterlife*. When the racial subtext of pitching black women against each other for the approval of whites is pointed out, posts are reported and black posters like me are the ones who are then accused of racism. After all, the defense goes, posters like Michelle Obama so it’s not racism!

*MM is not that black so this is not about racism. This is a consistent line trotted out in defence. It is itself hugely problematic that whites women believe they can police who is black and who is not and how black some people are. Anyone who knows the slightest thing about the “mulatto, quadroon” etc racial classification of black people over the years knows how deeply offensive this is.

*Speculation about Tyler Perry, a black man who reportedly gave H and MM his house, and how he must want to profit from their royal links, when similar speculation was not made about Elton John who lent them a private plane. Why does the black man want to profit from their royal links but not the white man?

Only the racist pictures were taken down. For the rest, the threads were only deleted in whole when posters challenged the racism. The racism has NEVER been addressed separately by @MNHQ.

@MNHQ needs to decide whether it wants this corner of its website to be filled with racially problematic content. I have no problem with @MNHQ deciding that they would rather keep their majority white audience happy, even if it means they can trash MM to their heart’s content.

That is fine.

In that case, please stop using stock images of smiling black women and cute black babies to illustrate features on your website.

You can’t have it both ways: portraying Mumsnet as racially diverse, then do nothing about what are now more than 25 000 posts of non stop negativity and relentless overt and subliminal racism directed at the only woman of color to join the Royal Family.

So please, @MNHQ Stop dismissing posters challenging racism by blithely calling these discussions mere “bun fightS” that are “not in the spirit”. It’s a cop out that allows you to avoid the elephant in the room.

After all, the world at the moment is calling out racism and racist structures. Because it is the right thing to do. And because these conversations are long overdue.

PineconeOfDoom · 08/06/2020 03:28

The trouble is, you simply can’t compare H&M to celebrities and the McCanns, and complain that criticism of them is handled differently.

H&M are not in the same situation. A lot of public money was spent on security for their wedding, financing them since the wedding and they still have a significant debt to pay back to public funds for Frogmore Cottage. Meanwhile, they continue to be financed by Prince Charles (and it’s debatable whether his wealth should be considered truly private) while they work out how to monetise their connection to the Royal Family. That connection is all they have to offer, without it they are just an ex-serviceman and an actress with limited name recognition from one TV show. How they go about monetising that connection will reflect on the Royal Family, which we in the UK all pay for.

They are not above criticism and they will clearly continue to put themselves in the public eye. People will want to talk about them and should be able to. It would be wrong to shut down all conversation about them even if some of it is critical.

The only way forward is to moderate so that any racist posts are recognised and removed. But they shouldn’t be protected from all criticism.

Tsukukuviri · 08/06/2020 04:14

@PineConeOfDoom

I have not once, here or elsewhere suggested that they should not be criticized. It is the racist undertones that I object to, kindly look at my examples above and explain how the fact that they ever got tax money justifies speculation such as MM hitting Charlotte.

Incidentally, in those two years or so that MM was a working royal, she and H were great value to the monarchy, particularly abroad. And they actually were working royals. Like other working royals, they got public money.

Then they stopped being working royals and have given up that money. They have agreed to pay some of it back. What Charles chooses to give them is surely up to him? In any event, there will be howls of outrage whatever they do to make money. If Netflix offers them 50 million for documentaries for instance, that will still be criticized.

They don’t owe you into perpetuity. And certainly, you can’t justify racism by saying, oh I pay 50p or whatever towards them in taxes so I can say anything I like.

DeeCeeCherry · 08/06/2020 04:46

I think if racist, derogatory posts about MM are allowed to stand then, why should other non-related posts/comments elsewhere be deleted? Some of those posts are a walk in the park compared to the crazed cult of constant MM bashing. The malicious trolling is off the scale.

Then again I've long thought that Daily Mail readers have migrated over to MN, in the main. They are attracted by racism and general offensiveness around 'isms' being acceptable so it makes sense that they are here in droves.

sprocky999 · 08/06/2020 04:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DeeCeeCherry · 08/06/2020 04:59

pineconeofdoom, Spot on.

Racial slurs and derogatory stereotypes of black women are trotted out relentlessly about MM. These women are muck-spreading obsessives with too much time on their hands.

Agreed - MNHQ need to stop with the smiling black woman and child publicity pics, because it's not representative of what MN truly is.

LightasLife · 08/06/2020 06:06

I am a longtime lurker and a woman of Nigerian descent. I always enjoyed the Harry and Meghan threads, both the positive and those labelled negative by some. There were a few racist posts but they definitely were the minority.

Meghan Markle strikes me as a narcissist. I think that is what many unconsciously, most likely dislike about her. Even her recent address to graduating high school students descended into “me, me, me”. She has always had white friends, white partners, attended an overwhelmingly white Catholic school, joined a white sorority in college, and lived mostly in a white world. She has stated what people really think of blacks was said in her presence, as people didn’t realize she is biracial. Her experiences mean nothing to me, because we have nothing in common.

@Tsukukuviri, Winterlife can defend herself, but she was fairly balanced about the Duchess of Sussex. I have read all the threads, including the hidden ones thanks to posts on the positive thread. I recall no post by Winterlife that referred to Michelle Obama. I do remember her criticizing the Duchess of Sussex’s lack of foundation garments and shortly thereafter making the same criticism about the Duchess of Cornwall. The posts were not linked, but that is the only time I remember similar posts about women by her. I only remember it as it struck me as funny. So please stop lying or provide proof. I know you cannot as I have read all the threads.

I find a white woman following other posters around and telling them what they can and cannot post appalling. It is racist itself as it patronizingly assumes all POC think in lockstep.

There is a mechanism here to report racism. I agree with those who have stated you are bullies. You are not interested in dialogue.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 08/06/2020 06:28

sprocky999 your posts in several of the threads about Black Lives Matter have been so overtly racist and jaw dropping that MANY posters, including white posters and those who are generally sceptical of BLM, have openly called you racist and said that you must be intentionally trolling.

You literally just posted this:

“there nothing wrong with discriminating against black people”

and

“There is no racism in the UK.”

You also seem to take delight in dropping racial slurs like “n**r” while talking to black people, which doesn’t even make sense in context. You just randomly started screaming “NGGER” at black people totally out of the blue. Then claim not to be racist??

There are some posters I give the benefit of the doubt to, or think they’re suffering from subconscious bias. You, you’re a card carrying member of the KKK by comparison to most posters here.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 08/06/2020 06:36

Some of the most active Meghan bashers posting on the “other” forum got banned for overt racism and trolling (like the poster whose username was a derivation of “Meghan Whore” who wittily retitled Frogmore to Frogwhore, and who admits to having registered ten separate MN accounts just to slag off Meghan). They weren’t “bullied off.”

Most of the posters who have been bullied off MN (ie choose to leave rather than being banned) due to the Meghan threads have been BAME women who were active in trying to combat racism in non-Meghan threads too. Some of the worst treatment was dealt out to black posters who weren’t even Meghan fans, just disgusted at the racism.

The abuse directed at BAME posters has included: doxxing them on other sites, starting threads to attack them on other sites, doxxing on this site (including posting real names and addresses), accusing them of lying about their job or education level, sending PMs containing racial slurs, casually dropping the N word in full into conversation, endless personal insults, direct abuse (like literally flooding threads by posting “USERNAME IS A CUNT” 10 times in a row and yes those posts are deleted but it’s still awful to have to read), using multiple sock puppet accounts just to post personal abuse at a particular poster, calling them mentally ill, and generally redirecting the focus of threads away from Meghan into a concerted coordinated attempt by multiple posters to attack anyone who ‘comes out’ as being BAME on a personal level and make the thread all about that person and how awful, stupid, crazy, and dishonest that poster is.

Someone accusing you of being racist (when most of the people accused of being racist ARE being racist) really pales into comparison with the gleeful mass bullying of black and biracial posters.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 08/06/2020 06:54

I've been on MN for years and regularly namechange every few weeks. 10 is nothing.

No, you misunderstand. 10 different accounts, not 10 name changes. So she’d be banned, create a new throwaway email address, use that to register a whole brand account to get around being banned. That account would eventually be banned, she’d create another new email account, register another account. Ad infinitum.

CharmerLlama · 08/06/2020 06:58

Just go to the cheap mumsnet and read about it for yourself

It's not cheap, it's free 😁

ForTheCulture · 08/06/2020 07:14

I have no problem with****@MNHQ***deciding that they would rather keep their majority white audience happy, even if it means they can trash MM to their heart’s content.

That is fine.

In that case, please stop using stock images of smiling black women and cute black babies to illustrate features on your website*

This

And please let us know where you stand so we can make the decision whether to continue to frequent MN.

It's disgusting this is allowed to go on for as long as it has

rockingchaircandle · 08/06/2020 07:25

@ButteryPuffin Hard to tell what you mean but I think we largely agree, and my point still stands. If you don't want to be disagreed with you need a private group.

I think some of the criticism of Meghan is racist and misogynistic, some of it is fine and some of it is laughable. If you want to post about Meghan, I can disagree with you.

It's not bullying, as @CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate claims either. This is just like the whole derailment thing. Disagreeing with someone on a personal forum is not bullying or derailing. On the Meghan threads, you'd achieved a nice little group consensus and when I or any other poster disagreed there were a set of tactics where you made it about derailment or scolding. What's left of the evidence is there for anyone who wants to check. If you want to tell me how I've bullied anyone other than by legitimately disagreeing with them, do so or stop the allegations. This claim: because all black people think the same don't you know - where have I said this? It's deflection, you know I have not.

OP posts:
rockingchaircandle · 08/06/2020 07:38

Again, @LightasLife please tell me where I've been following other posters around and telling them what they can and cannot post - I have not. It is racist itself as it patronizingly assumes all POC think in lockstep.* - more offensive allegations, I have in no way said this.

The point is that the mechanism here to report racism is not working, as the racist posts you are arguing about are no longer there. MN has acknowledged the racism. The OP is asking how they are intending to address it.

I agree with those who have stated you are bullies. You are not interested in dialogue. All the tactics used on the Meghan thread shut down dialogue, the remaining threads will show I did try and have a dialogue, but anyone who disagreed with the prevailing view got a lot of abuse. Yesterday I was shown how there's a lot of coordination from banned posters on other sites as well as the ones who are forming groups on other boards. The levels some of these posters are going to is obsessive and shows they are acting in bad faith.

OP posts:
Tsukukuviri · 08/06/2020 07:39

In the news today, the US officially requests to talk to Andrew over his involvement with a known paedophile.

But that association has not attracted 25 or more threads of 1000 posts each saying how dreadful he is and how dreadful he is for the monarchy, and people demanding their tax money back and speculating over what he may or may not have done or said.

MM on the other hand gets to be attacked on thread after thread and @MNHQ tolerates it.

Says it all really.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 08/06/2020 07:40

The levels some of these posters are going to is obsessive and shows they are acting in bad faith.

THIS a thousand times.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 08/06/2020 07:47

In the news today, the US officially requests to talk to Andrew over his involvement with a known paedophile.

Not to mention, yesterday it came out that Dan Wootton of the Sun (who has promoted all kinds of abuse against Meghan) is best friends with William and Kate’s publicist’s partner, and has made at least two payments of £4000 to him for access to stories, mostly about Meghan but also intimate details about Beatrice and about Peter and Autumn Philips.

This happened the same week the Sun’s editor was named in a separate lawsuit, over the allegation that the editor hacked Harry’s phone.

I’ve seen very little coverage of that here.

amusedtodeath1 · 08/06/2020 07:48

The only reason I'm not keen on MM, is the hypocrisy, "save the environment (takes private jets)", that and blaming the UK for the press coverage, when in fact her family were largely to blame.

I've not seen any racism towards MM personally, I'm sure there is, but I'm betting that's not why a fair few aren't keen on her tbh.

Swipe left for the next trending thread