Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

[rockingchaircandle]

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

You’re doing good work by being vocal about racism, and calling it out. But you don’t help your cause when your arguments are sweeping, generalising, based on outrage rather than fact. This isn’t a racist statement, any academic in any field addressing any issue would say the same thing.

If you want to win an argument, present unassailable arguments. They speak for themselves and can’t be countered. The race argument literally cannot be countered - it’s wrong in every possible sense. Just shouting outrage actually does you a disservice.

There was definitely some speculation that someone like Tyler Perry might not be as wealthy as he claims /seems. Questioning if his race played a factor on such questions being asked is not outrageous, it is based on some rich people of colour’s experiences.

I have mentioned that contrary to some of the claims people have been able and allowed to discuss HaM’s use of taxpayer funds over many threads and this alone in itself is not deemed racist, at least not my me.

My opinions are not based on outrage or anger not on mumsnet of all places. I have no desire to win arguments here, like other BAME posters on this thread I know there will be no resolution.

I think this is a very important topic and it is great it is being discussed.

I find the groupings into the “negative” and “positive” thread a bit unnecessary. I agree that if it was all together, it would provide a more unbiased view as to what the posts look like. At the moment, I feel this creates some kind of “we” and “them” mentality where all posters are put into groups (based on where they post) and then due to this group allocated some sort of group identity and almost labelled “racist and/or horrible” versus “non-racist and/or nice”.

Chocolaty, I am a regular poster on the “negative thread”. I must have missed the hitting lunacy, but I posted three or for times saying that the photo suggestion was rubbish. I think my last post was along the lines “nope, still not buying it”. I am not sure if this was after you or another thread?

I think there are two discussions here.

The first deals with the individual posts where a few are horrid and rightly challenged. However, I do believe that it is wrong to group all posters into a “horrid” group based a) on other posts on that thread or b) if they are posting with “horrid-labelled” posters on a completely different thread.

The second, more overall discussion is whether the duration of the H&M discussions is due to any subconscious bias and/or some cumulative effect of this reinforces the posters view and potentially feeds into other media as Rocking says. This is a very valid discussion and I don’t have any ready answer.

I find MM fascinating and now I'm not able to discuss her on MN because apparently I'm a vile racist. Human beings are all 'imperfect'. Biographies and autobiographies sell in their millions. Why is that?

I feel extremely uncomfortable with this level of censorship.

I’m not comfortable with black women who call out racism being smeared and silenced via false accusations of “censorship.”

Seneca, I just wanted to address the “mocking Harry” statement. I was there and I was making fun of him. I wanted to provide some context for the benefit of this thread.

Prince Harry has an education most people in this country can only dream of, literary the best money can buy (I have friend teaching in a deprived area and she is regularly in tears about it). Prince Harry also positions himself as an environmental champion and keen on animal preservation in Africa.

During a call Harry seemed to believe that

1. He was chatting to a 16 year old girl (he was talking to a Russian male in his 20s/30s).

2. This 16 year old girl was concerned about a bunch of penguins she had in Belarus.

3. She needed a ship to rescue them (My 9-year old DS knows that Belarus is landlocked)

4. She wanted to take them to the North Pole (where they don’t live).

Not only did he seem to buy all of this, he also had a solution “I know a guy who might be able to help” (or something similar).

In that context I found it hilarious 😂. It was the funniest I had heard for a while and I did a name change which just stuck.

Below are some other things I have found funny in the past (Showing my age).

Bill Clinton who after stating (I believe under oath?) that he “did not have sex with that woman”. Clinton then had to answer in front of some panel, detailed question about what he considered to be “having sex”. There was a cigar involved. The recording and his facial expression were so funny. This was a long time ago, but there were some priceless memes at the time.

Moodys changing their rating methodology and giving AAA to all Icelandic banks completely wrecking havoc with the bond market (my favourite meme from the time was Moodys as a Bond Villain, complete with a cat, saying “Mr Bond Investor, I have been expecting you. I will now proceed to destroy my entire credibility with the push of this button”.

Neil Ferguson who a) created an appalling model which appeared to not only lack some basic assumptions, but also have some actual mistakes b) used this model scare everyone into a draconian lockdown proceeded to c) have his married lover over for some “me-time”.

The list goes on and on.

I genuinely do not mean to bully anyone or kicking anyone that is down. Sometimes I just find that the state of the world is so tragic, that you have to laugh when it gets too absurd.

MoreHippoThanPenguin you can protest all you like that you did not mean to keep bullying and kicking anyone, but if you were an enthusiastic participant in thread after thread that existed purely to get spiteful kicks out of repeatedly bashing a woman who had committed no crime then you were enjoying threads that were riddled with subtle and not so subtle racism.

If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

@rockingchaircandle, I have given this some thought and this is the best I can come up with at the moment.

I believe it will be tricky for MNHQ to deal with this optimally at the moment. We are in the middle of a pandemic, all businesses are struggling and we all have personal issues to deal with.

Why don’t you or a group inspired by you take action on this? Use either your network IRL or some of the many intelligent women here. Try to compile a set of standards across various industries and make a proposal for moderation which addresses at least:

1. What will happen immediately a post / thread is reported?

2. What are the criteria the post / thread is being judged against?

3. What is the composition of the panel making that judgement?

4. What are the repercussions?

5. How is this communicated?

I am too snowed under with various things to help with the project/drafting, but if you PM me, I am happy to look at more final drafts.

I think MN might welcome a well drafted proposal which provides an open, transparent framework for the moderation. What do you think?

@ButteryPuffin

On one hand this is a 'public forum' in rocking's view where you can't expect to express views and then not like others disagreeing with them. On the other hand it's a 'a privately owned forum that deletes loads of stuff and pretty much outright bans several topics and people' as chocolatety says. Both those statements seem valid, but then of course they come into conflict. And both groups say they don't want censorship but do say they want the other group to stop saying the things they are saying. Both groups think the other group misrepresent them and the way they post - again, some validity in both views. Everyone remembers threads differently yet people post confident absolute statements about what they contained. None of it promotes agreement and consensus and no one wants to compromise or agree to disagree. I can see why MN are scratching their heads about how to moderate.

1. It is a 'public forum' in rocking's view where you can't expect to express views and then not like others disagreeing with them.

1. 'a privately owned forum that deletes loads of stuff and pretty much outright bans several topics and people' as chocolatety says.

These are not mutually exclusive.

You can't post and expect not to be disagreed with as it is a public space. You need to set up a Whatsapp group for that. You can't post whatever you like, it is a moderated site. Racism is not allowed. MN have acknowledged there is racism - this thread is to ask what they are going to do about it.

I'm not in a group. I just want to know what MN are going to do to prevent the racism from reocurring. Everyone remembers threads differently - which is why deleting them without a reason does not work. no one wants to compromise - not about racism, that's not a strange position.

(Once again, to anyone with this idea - I'm not saying that all criticism of Meghan is racist. Please don't hide behind this idea)

TheNavigator, I am sorry you feel that way. I don’t believe in defining people based on where they post.

Neither do I believe that using metaphors describing people as flea ridden dogs is solving any problems.

I respect your view and we will have to disagree on this.

@Thepoorchild

Just all of us on MN are, for writing much less severe opinions on MM. Got it.

We had this with Reddit yesterday. Other people are more racist is not a great argument. I don't have to be ordered to challenge racism everywhere, just because I've challenged it here.

This is a forum that I use regularly. If you see racism anywhere I suggest you challenge it. That's really not the moral high ground, it's just not being a racist.

I challenge here as well, because MN represent women's issues to the government and act as pressure group. If they aren't prepared to tackle racism, and make sure all women feel welcome here, all the Mental Health campaigns etc ar very hollow.

[quote ARoseInHarlem]**@rockingchaircandle* and @ChocolatelyAsFuck*

Have you seen any negative commentary on MM about H&M which you DON’T think is racist or misogynist, or has undertones of either of these?[/quote]
Again, this is a tired argument. I have said repeatedly that not all criticism is racist or misogynist. I have said that criticising a women of colour does not make you racist or misogynist. So find a quote where I have, or please stop trying to make this argument.

I have posted on the threads in Jan/Feb, and I did agree with some points. The problems came when I disagreed. And that led to personal attacks, and a clique forming around calling people scolds, claiming it was derailment. Again, nobody ever gave me any evidence of this derailment, or has explained how it is in anyway different to just disagreeing.

I left at the end of Feb-ish until a couple of days ago, after MN said they were cracking down. Apparently some posters got banned, but the problem isn't solved. Which is why I started the thread.

@candilemon

It's problematical for me that a group of posters have created a community around their dislike of a woman of color.

I presume that is because you are a woman of colour?

I'm white, and I think it is a massive problem.

There is a group that has formed around attacking one woman. There is another thread as it turned out yesterday when they used it to organise the spamming of the anti-racism thread. I think that summed up their childishness and complete disregard. It's a game to them in a way it isn't/can't be to many other posters.

And even though they had this space, where they chatted and discussed Meghan, it wasn't enough for them. They had to still have the threads in the RF section, like they needed to be seen as well, and be able to control what was said about her. This cliqueness is a separate issue from this particular OP, & addressing the racism issue will hopefully stop troll-ish behaviour associated with it, but I think it is really weird behaviour.

@ARoseInHarlem

You’re doing good work by being vocal about racism, and calling it out. But you don’t help your cause when your arguments are sweeping, generalising, based on outrage rather than fact. This isn’t a racist statement, any academic in any field addressing any issue would say the same thing.

If you want to win an argument, present unassailable arguments. They speak for themselves and can’t be countered. The race argument literally cannot be countered - it’s wrong in every possible sense. Just shouting outrage actually does you a disservice.

One of the problems with the racism is that some is very obvious and some of it is what MN has called 'subtle' racism. If someone wants to set up a thread debating how racist the threads are fine. I have lots of examples of both kinds of racism, but I don't want to risk the thread being deleted here.

The OP asks about how MN is going to address the racism they have acknowledged privately, as part of their commitment to anti-racism which again they have said they think is important. At the moment it is getting dismissed as bunfighting and derailment so I'm interested in hearing what they come up with.

[quote MoreHippoThanPenguin]@rockingchaircandle, I have given this some thought and this is the best I can come up with at the moment.

I believe it will be tricky for MNHQ to deal with this optimally at the moment. We are in the middle of a pandemic, all businesses are struggling and we all have personal issues to deal with.

Why don’t you or a group inspired by you take action on this? Use either your network IRL or some of the many intelligent women here. Try to compile a set of standards across various industries and make a proposal for moderation which addresses at least:

1. What will happen immediately a post / thread is reported?

2. What are the criteria the post / thread is being judged against?

3. What is the composition of the panel making that judgement?

4. What are the repercussions?

5. How is this communicated?

I am too snowed under with various things to help with the project/drafting, but if you PM me, I am happy to look at more final drafts.

I think MN might welcome a well drafted proposal which provides an open, transparent framework for the moderation. What do you think?[/quote]
Yes, that would be a great idea. I'm pretty snowed at the moment but would contribute. More importantly, the women who are most affected by it should be asked to lead it, and paid accordingly. I would love to see MN reach out to the posters on here, ask for feedback, seek outside help. There is so much expertise on this out there.

It's important work and if MN are serious about anti-racism that would be a great suggestion to move forward. In the interim, they still need to make sure they are proactive on racism and posters acting in bad faith.

Thank you @MoreHippoThanPenguin for spending time on this.

My pleasure, I do not condone racism, personal attacks or misogyny in any form.

A few final thoughts before I pop elsewhere on the board with my rose wine .

MNHQ will never be able to pay for the time of the people possessing the skills needed for this. However, most people I have come across at that level would happily do a very limited pro bono hours for the right cause.

You would need

a) somebody passionate to drive the project (probably also pro bono)

b) a very defined goal like “ improve the procedures for moderation in order to achieve best practice in the management personal attacks, misogyny and racism “.

b) a clearly defined headline for items needed (to be reviewed by capable people), something along the lines of my previous post

c) a plan for which the relevant stakeholders/possible helpers could be

d) a defined way for how to approach them if not on Mumsnet (with most people on that level you have maximum 20 seconds to catch their interest).

e) a thoughtful conversation with MNHQ and their blessing of the project if people are being approached here. I cannot imagine them opposing capable people working pro bono to help, but if anything is done on their platform, it would have to be with their cooperation/blessing.

It would truly be amazing if something tangible was done on this. I think there are lots of upset on all sides and that several people feel targeted. I do think we all agree that an improved moderation of these issues would help us all.

You probably need point f-z, but this is a start .

@MoreHippoThanPenguin

My pleasure, I do not condone racism, personal attacks or misogyny in any form.

A few final thoughts before I pop elsewhere on the board with my rose wine .

MNHQ will never be able to pay for the time of the people possessing the skills needed for this. However, most people I have come across at that level would happily do a very limited pro bono hours for the right cause.

You would need

a) somebody passionate to drive the project (probably also pro bono)

b) a very defined goal like “ improve the procedures for moderation in order to achieve best practice in the management personal attacks, misogyny and racism “.

b) a clearly defined headline for items needed (to be reviewed by capable people), something along the lines of my previous post

c) a plan for which the relevant stakeholders/possible helpers could be

d) a defined way for how to approach them if not on Mumsnet (with most people on that level you have maximum 20 seconds to catch their interest).

e) a thoughtful conversation with MNHQ and their blessing of the project if people are being approached here. I cannot imagine them opposing capable people working pro bono to help, but if anything is done on their platform, it would have to be with their cooperation/blessing.

It would truly be amazing if something tangible was done on this. I think there are lots of upset on all sides and that several people feel targeted. I do think we all agree that an improved moderation of these issues would help us all.

You probably need point f-z, but this is a start .

Ok, well there is a big debate about people being expected to do this kind of work for free. It's the kind of thing people put a lot of work into, anti-racism, and expecting them to work for free is insulting to them. I think this kind of moderation should be central to a business like MN.

More than happy to discuss this kind of approach with MN though. To be honest, any response from @MNHQ would be pretty welcome at this point. Thanks again.

@MoreHippoThanPenguin thank you so much for your input suggestions on the way forward.Absolutely appreciated

@rockingchaircandle, I hope this thread doesn’t get deleted like all the others, but if it does I hope you know that your anti racism & anti misogyny efforts haven’t gone unnoticed in this space. Personal attacks or not you have been consistent & resilient, that alone means something to some of us.

mean

@rockingchaircandle, I hope this thread doesn’t get deleted like all the others, but if it does I hope you know that your anti racism & anti misogyny efforts haven’t gone unnoticed in this space

Totally agree.

@Winterlife

There is a banned poster who has allegedly boasted elsewhere that she has 10 different names on this forum. So no, there doesn't appear to be a way to ban posters, and I doubt it is high on the list of forum priorities.

I have moderated forums in the past. Banned posters can, and almost always do, find their way back with VPNs. There is no way around that. The most efficient thing to do, from a moderation perspective, is to delete threads that are consuming your time.

10 different names - is that all?

I've been on MN for years and regularly namechange every few weeks. 10 is nothing.

Thank you OP. I hope this thread stays up and @MNHQ responds at some point

If the point is to get a response from MNHQ, why is this thread in the royal family section?