Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

[rockingchaircandle]

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

This is a good example of how it is making people feel:

I think MN opting for silence is quite off-putting.

*Already on other social media sites, I have seen posts complaining of racism on MN and BAME (really hate that term) posters being advised of several alternatives welcoming to women of colour which tbh seem to be a better option. I did feel validated seeing such posts because it confirms it's not just me that is turned off by some of these threads and comments.

Maybe we are a small number and our presence will not be noticeable if we leave but I'm sure minority posters leaving MN will be a shame because the balance will skew possibly more to these "subtle not so subtle racist posts" with fewer people to challenge them (off course not saying other white posters wouldn't challenge them).

It's not a nice thing to have a reputation for and MN should really step in if they do not want this to be a part of their brand although it seems it might already be.

@MNHQ can you please be clear about this? It can't be dismissed as 'bunfighting'. That is insulting.

Another important point from yesterday.

And on racism: even if you think racism should be ignored, an awful lot of posters do more than just ignore it. They actively downplay and deny it, and implicitly align themselves with the same posters who are engaging in racism.

Context matters. I’ve had friends casually mention that they dislike Meghan and I don’t take issue with that because it’s in the context of a private conversation. Choosing a forum known for racist bullying and abusive trolls as the place to express an opinion which those same bullies and trolls promote, is a very different context.

Why is telling the world you dislike a celeb so crucial to you, that you’re willing to align yourselves with racists and trolls do to do?

I have been astonished at the unpleasantness displayed towards Meghan on here. Some posters display spiteful glee throughout endless threads picking apart any perceived 'misdemeanour' of the woman's.

If you post disagreeing, or defending her, you get jeered at for 'derailing', which surely would only apply were the thread called '"Only for people who want to find fault with MM' - which obviously those who like this "sport" are careful not to do, presumably because it's not a good look.

I would love MNHQ to be firmer on this and to say that MN is not here to rip mothers and females to shreds.

I do feel sorry for MM. I heard on the radio a while ago some academic analysed Twitter threads on MM and KM, MM threads were something like twice as likely to use derogatory language about her. I hope she doesn't read any of the stuff written, it must be awful to be under constant attack. I don't blame her for leaving the UK, I would have as well.

If you post disagreeing, or defending her, you get jeered

That is simply untrue. I have often disagreed with posters about comments about MM. For example, I believe the litigation was commenced at Harry's instigation, not MM's. No one has "jeered" at me, or even been unpleasant any time I have posted an opinion that disagrees with another poster's view.

You are seeing things that don't exist and making things up.

Your amazing OP you should make this your life mission! Please ramp up your campaign and then take it to GMB. I’d love to see you take on pees Morgan the twerp. You’d eat him for breakfast. Do it!

And please go onto the Daily Mail website and police all those vile comments! You can do it, I have every faith in you. It can’t be easy constantly looking for things but I know you can do jtZ mumsnet first daily scuzzer next.

No, the OP is not seeing things that don't exist or making things up. She is quoting comments made by other posters.

Yes, she is. She has stated people who disagree with posts get jeered. I have disagreed several times, and no one has "jeered" me, or even suggested I was wrong.

@Winterlife

Yes, she is. She has stated people who disagree with posts get jeered. I have disagreed several times, and no one has "jeered" me, or even suggested I was wrong.

On please, give me a break. I'm not on here very often but I recognise your name as someone who is highly critical of H and M.

So you disagree with a few comments? It's within the context of being a welcomed poster.

Stop being so disingenuous.

Jeering is fine, but I'd like @MNHQ to make a statement one way or the other. Claiming to be anti-racist etc in emails but then only responding by deleting threads is not effective.

On please, give me a break. I'm not on here very often but I recognise your name as someone who is highly critical of H and M.

Please point to the posts "highly critical" of MM.

I am critical of Harry much more than Meghan, and IMHO, that criticism is richly deserved. For example, I have posted that MM has never, to my recollection, commented on the environment. Harry has, telling others not to fly while using private planes himself, which are far more environmentally damaging than commercial flights.

I've stated I believe suing the tabloids is a mistake, but I have always maintained this is driven by Harry, not MM.

I criticized MM for the Wimbledon stint and for her treatment of her father.

I've criticized both HaM for abusing the Canadian taxpayer.

None of the above have any racial component, nor are they misogynistic, unless one stretches the lawsuit issue, but I truly believe that Harry is the driving factor behind them, not MM.

What do you expect them to do, then? Ban posters? They can come back with new names. Not allow any threads, including this one, which you happen to disagree with?

There were WOC posting on the H&M threads. I know this from PMs. You paint everyone with a broad brush.

The only thing mumsnet can do is delete reported posts.

The very last thing that happened on that thread before it was deleted was someone calling me a liar and claimed I’m destroyed my credibility because I said not everyone rejected/challenged the poster who made up a horrible lie claiming to have insider knowledge of Meghan hitting Charlotte. Members of the clique insisted that no one believed it, that everyone strongly challenged and was disgusted by it, and that the post with the allegation was swiftly deleted.

Well guess what, I looked out the old thread and while the original post was deleted, as of yesterday there is still a post up (not deleted) from someone attempting to confirm the story saying “Yes my DH works a very high up job and he’s spoken to several royal staffers personally who have told him the story about Meghan hitting Charlotte”. There are also posts from two separate posters stating that they believed the story could be true and that they “didn’t not believe it.”

One of those posters, incidentally, was Winterlife.

I never stated I believed that story. I posted I didn't believe it nor disbelieve it. I don't know the truth of the situation. I would say the same about "tightsgate" and about an argument between Kate and Meghan. All of these things may have happened. All of those things may never have occurred. I don't know the truth of it either way, and neither does anyone else except the parties involved.

I am old enough to know that people do strange things that are sometimes unbelievable, and sometimes, out of character. It doesn't matter who they are.

@Winterlife

What do you expect them to do, then? Ban posters? They can come back with new names. Not allow any threads, including this one, which you happen to disagree with?

There were WOC posting on the H&M threads. I know this from PMs. You paint everyone with a broad brush.

The only thing mumsnet can do is delete reported posts.

@Winterlife

there is no point in having the same debate. It will get deleted. @MNHQ are well aware of what's going on, the impact it has, the tactics that are being used and who is doing it. There are a small group of childish posters who use the same tactics to derail, as it seems to be a game to them, and it works!

What do I expect them to do? I'm asking them to do something. They can ban posters. They can delete posts. They can say why they delete rather than dismissing legitimate challenges as bunfights.

Why are you so determined that nothing can be done other than deleting posts? When the damage has already been done, and this just hides the evidence?

There is a banned poster who has allegedly boasted elsewhere that she has 10 different names on this forum. So no, there doesn't appear to be a way to ban posters, and I doubt it is high on the list of forum priorities.

I have moderated forums in the past. Banned posters can, and almost always do, find their way back with VPNs. There is no way around that. The most efficient thing to do, from a moderation perspective, is to delete threads that are consuming your time.

@Winterlife

I never stated I believed that story. I posted I didn't believe it nor disbelieve it. I don't know the truth of the situation. I would say the same about "tightsgate" and about an argument between Kate and Meghan. All of these things may have happened. All of those things may never have occurred. I don't know the truth of it either way, and neither does anyone else except the parties involved.

I am old enough to know that people do strange things that are sometimes unbelievable, and sometimes, out of character. It doesn't matter who they are.

There are threads and threads of these ridiculous allegations. It fuels itself, and fuels the mainstream media. (Without getting into the question of why it happens to be this one woman that is the target, time and time again).

Everyone expressed their outrage at the Spectator article a couple of days ago that attacked her, after everybody had clicked on it and helped the ad revenue. It's hypocritical. This is not happening in a vacuum and MNHQ is allowing it when it allows invented stories to be posted and discussed.

And then also wants to represent women and champion their rights and well-being?

Oh Jeez its bloody low saying the Duchess hit the child what absolute nasty kerb licking rubbish yuk yuk yuk some people will say anything to get at the woman and it is foul!

I posted I didn't believe it nor disbelieve it.

Exactly. The Flying Monkeys in the previous post were insistent that everyone was horrified by the post, that everyone challenged it, that no one believed it. By your own admission that is not true. I doubt anyone will apologise for falsely calling me a liar.

And of course you wouldn’t be jeered for disagreeing over some minor point or other, you’re a card carrying member of the Flying Monkeys clique.

You’ve posted numerous times claiming to have two separate friends who both worked with Meghan in LA before she was famous, who both disliked her and thought she was a nightmare. (If I had a penny for every Meghan basher who has “a friend in LA who worked with and hated Meghan” and who shares those horror stories only anonymously with Mumsnetters and Tumblrites, but never with the press who’d pay for them.)

So how can one know what is in an article without reading it?

For profit media is receptive to criticism. If you didn't like the article, report it.

As I posted, from this side of the pond, it seemed to me that article was more about "left hypocrisy" (not that I'm saying that's what it is, just that this is what the article suggested). It's common in American media, particularly right wing media. It's polarizing, and has been since the Clinton years.

i do think it was odd that the last thread was deleted for being derailed!
MN HQ should imo speak to the posters who do that, delete the posts and allow the thread to continue. but that is just my opinion.

it is not derailing to have a different opinion. that is just debate, it can be annoying, but thats life.
but countless threads ripping mm apart on a parenting site are imo not good.
I have never seen it happen to any other high profile person.
you don't have to like her to see that its wrong.

@Winterlife

There is a banned poster who has allegedly boasted elsewhere that she has 10 different names on this forum. So no, there doesn't appear to be a way to ban posters, and I doubt it is high on the list of forum priorities.

I have moderated forums in the past. Banned posters can, and almost always do, find their way back with VPNs. There is no way around that. The most efficient thing to do, from a moderation perspective, is to delete threads that are consuming your time.

I'm not after efficient moderation, I'm after responsible moderation.

So you keep banning posters. You explain deletions. You don't dismiss anti-racism as bunfighting. Or if that is not efficient enough, don't send emails claiming you are looking into it and that you think anti-racism is important. The same posters are repeatedly fueling this, it's not a mystery. Ban them for a start.

If preventing racism, and the offensive discussion that arises from the endless Meghan threads is not high on forum priorities, then they can tell us that themselves.

@MNHQ - can you confirm please?

Mumsnet was correct about bunfighting. There were no racist posts on the last 2 threads deleted. One didn't even have any posts about HaM.

You should also be careful about what you want deleted. I left in the USSR, where media was controlled, and books were censored. I once tried to bring a book into the country as a gift - a book that was originally printed in the USSR, but was no longer available. It was confiscated. I was told there was absolutely nothing wrong with the book, but the publisher (a German publishing house) was, because they also printed dissident literature.

You challenge racism by quoting racist posts and asking the poster how they can justify those views. You don't stop it by censorship.