Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

[rockingchaircandle]

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

I have heard the new (for UK people) connotation of uppity in the last year or so. I don't think it's been widely talked about and absorbed here yet. But that's one of the benefits of having these conversations.

@ButteryPuffin

,a group of posters who are now mainly banned made it very difficult

rocking, have MN told you that posters have been banned? Have they told you how many, and have they told you which specific posters have been banned?

There's not really much more to be said other than inventing straw man arguments.

Though obviously, closing down discussion on how to move forward productively isn't on, right? Because that's the conversation I like to think I've been in this afternoon. People are free to disagree of course.

I'm presuming as they have not popped up again and none of the childish tactics have been employed that they have been banned. Maybe some are still here and have changed their name and behaviour, which is good!

Discussions about moving forward are great. But making people justify again, the arguments against racism or the need for the MN statement seems unproductive and unfair. Not sure why you'd want to. The guidelines are very clear and that's what the thread was after.

Have to disagree with you there. Uppity has never had racist connotations in the UK. It has class connotations, meaning someone is acting above their so-called station in life. Which is nasty. But not racist.

US culture is pretty intertwined with the UK's so I've come across it in both class and race contexts. In the context of the Meghan threads, using it to describe an American black woman in her position could definitely suggest racist connotations to me, and if I hadn't realised it could be taken that way, I'd hope I could accept it in good faith if it was pointed out. There was a pretty high profile example with Eamon Holmes that people interested in Meghan may well have come across in the UK very recently.

Has anyone described Meghan as “uppity”?

@OverUnderSidewaysDown

Has anyone described Meghan as “uppity”?

I was replying to amusedtodeath1's post, presuming it was in good faith.

I thought you were replying to my post, as you quoted it in its entirety.

OverUnderSidewaysDown

uppity is racist and I'm from the UK
Have to disagree with you there. Uppity has never had racist connotations in the UK. It has class connotations, meaning someone is acting above their so-called station in life. Which is nasty. But not racist.

The meaning of the word is ‘having ideas above your station’ and it is associated with social class.

Language evolves but that is when another new / more recent definition is added by the dictionary boffins. This process takes time and is decided by etymologists.

Consider the more recent meaning of “gay”. When studying poetry from another era, for instance, one has to make clear that the word “gay”, as used in the past, has an entirely different - and original - meaning.

I'm presuming as they have not popped up again and none of the childish tactics have been employed that they have been banned.

That’s a bit of a leap. They may well be occupied by things in their real lives.

I am confused by the stance as mentioned that people wanting to discuss H&M are addicted to it and a negative connotation is portrayed that they continue to want to discuss. And the number of threads is listed as somehow ridiculing those people.

But there are more Trump threads. And people continue to want to discuss. But thats ok?

What’s the difference? I can’t see one.

Quote candilemon

I agree. As in the child that is born on the sabbath day is Bonny and blithe and good and gay

If you ban mysogyny then you need to ban misandry.

Huge difference. Trump is supposedly the leader of the free world. A lot of what he does affects everyone on this planet..

His relationship with dictators and Putin
Pulling out of the Paris Accord and now stopping payments to the World Health Organisation
His ongoing criticism of NATO
His trade policies
Reviving banned big game hunting
And more but I won't bore you...

There is nothing that H&M do that affects me but looking at the list above for Trump....

candilemon we are in agreement. It was rockingchaircandle who said “Uppity is racist and I’m in the UK” in her post at 18.20 yesterday.
I disagreed with her in my post which quoted her and said “Have to disagree with you there. Uppity has never had racist connotations in the UK. It has class connotations, meaning someone is acting above their so-called station in life. Which is nasty. But not racist.”

But can't you see that the notion of " ideas above their station" is problematical when applied to a person of color, a person of an historically oppressed class.

@SenecaFallsRedux

Uppity is racist?

When applied to a person of color, yes. It's suggests that they don't know their place. Maybe the full connotation hasn't yet made its way across the pond, but it is universally understood to be racist in the US when used to describe a black person.

I don't understand why we have to adopt the American interpretation of words in the English language and lose our own, when ours is most definitely not racist at all? It has never had that connotation here. Why do we have to adopt the racist meaning? Surely the campaign should be to prevent that word from being used as a racist slur in the USA itself.

There are thousands of words that have different meanings and connotations in the USA from what they do in the UK (and I dare say are different again in other English-speaking countries).

Surely the campaign should be to prevent that word from being used as a racist slur in the USA itself.

Are you suggesting that we rehabilitate the word so that is loses it racist connotation? It turns out we don't really have a lot of use for the word in the US, the notion of "acting above your station," not being a particularly useful concept in a society that aspires to democracy.

@grassyhillocks
I don't understand why we have to adopt the American interpretation of words in the English language and lose our own, when ours is most definitely not racist at all?

Precisely. We do not have to adopt them. UK dictionaries are created in the UK for speakers of English within the UK.

the notion of "acting above your station," not being a particularly useful concept in a society that aspires to democracy.

Tell that to Trump!

But anyway, the word uppity has, I am sure, a long history of usage in the UK so why on earth would that be disregarded?

Mumsnet is also a UK registered site.

By actively drawing attention to words which have a negative or racist connotation in the USA, there is a danger of bringing about the very thing you are trying to prevent, which is that it will start to be used over here for the same reason.

@rockingchaircandle

Have to disagree with you there. Uppity has never had racist connotations in the UK. It has class connotations, meaning someone is acting above their so-called station in life. Which is nasty. But not racist.

US culture is pretty intertwined with the UK's so I've come across it in both class and race contexts. In the context of the Meghan threads, using it to describe an American black woman in her position could definitely suggest racist connotations to me, and if I hadn't realised it could be taken that way, I'd hope I could accept it in good faith if it was pointed out. There was a pretty high profile example with Eamon Holmes that people interested in Meghan may well have come across in the UK very recently.

Yes. One person complained to the broadcaster. One. A year ago and it got a few lines in the Metro. It was probably argued over on here, I wouldn't know.

For people who follow neither daytime television nor sleb/royal gossip and who don't live in London and pick up the Metro on the underground, it would have slipped their notice entirely.

Just because American culture and British culture are connected (they are certainly not intertwined and I say that as a person who has more relatives over there than over here), it doesnt mean that their culture and use of the English language should take precedence and swamp ours. Especially not if it is racist.

...it doesnt mean that their culture and use of the English language should take precedence and swamp ours.

Precisely.

Uppity has for years had racist connotations when used to describe a POC.

I'm surprised so few people know that.

@user50000000

Uppity has for years had racist connotations when used to describe a POC.

I'm surprised so few people know that.

I'm pushing 60 and the only times I've ever heard that word used it has been to describe someone who is an adult and therefore too old to be called 'a proper little madam'.

There has never been any racial connotation in my mind whatever - nor, I suspect, in 99.99999% of the rest of the entire population of the UK either, until very recently. Since it has now been brought to everybody's attention, I'm sure that the racists will now start using it with gleeful abandon and at every opportunity.