Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

[rockingchaircandle]

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

They're really not the same. A mention of a brand name or a person's name is straightforward and uncontroversial to identify. As all these threads have shown, racism is not. But if you think it's easy, try setting up your own forum where you can define your own clear and unambiguous rules and allow or disallow what you want.

Certain trolls like the pee troll or the plimsoll troll get identified and banned immediately. There are posters who have wracked up a dozen hugely abusive deleted posts in the space of just a few hours who have not been banned.

It’s not because MN are confused or struggling, it’s blatant hypocrisy and double standards.

I rarely post on MN about anything: I used to read the H&M threads but posters like the OP just put me off.

Instead I started reading Lipstick Alley's thread on H&M: the unpopular opinion thread there makes MN's threads look like child's play. I'd be interested to know if @OP tries to police LSA, or just MN?

Of course she wouldn’t go there and tell mostly AA women they’re racist.

Just all of us on MN are, for writing much less severe opinions on MM. Got it.

@rockingchaircandle and @ChocolatelyAsFuck

Have you seen any negative commentary on MM about H&M which you DON’T think is racist or misogynist, or has undertones of either of these?

My, Lipstick Alley pulls no punches.

Why do people like mentioning Lipstick Alley like it’s a forum that is similar to Mumsnet?. I have seen on previous threads some posters quoting how lipstick Alley is brutal to MM too, what they don’t mention is there is balance there. It’s a forum frequented by black and other minorities and many many of them know racism when they see it.

Surely this thread is a thread about a thread / threads and therefore against the Terms & Conditions?

This comparison is like when people argue that there can’t surely be brutality’s day discrimination faced by black people because of the ‘black on black crime’. I’m on lipstick Alley and if really someone was interested in unpacking racism they wouldn’t just go to the unpopular MM threads, there is a lot of information on there about what BAME face all over the world.

Not all black people like MM not all black people agree, we are complex and different just like white people. Why use opinions of AA who may not like Meghan to validate the horrible bullying and at times racism of a biracial woman on Mumsnet. Funny if a lot of lipstick Alley posters migrated here with their opinions and lived experience won’t feel so welcome in this space.

I haven't said there's no racism against MM: I'm sure there is. I'm sure if I went and read the DM comments I could easily find some. What I have seen over and over again though, is an opinion on MN being called racist by this OP, yet on Lipstick Alley unpopular opinion threads the same opinion being widely held.

But the OP and others are talking about the racism and stereotypes thrown at MM on mumsnet, a parenting forum. Why is it so wrong to talk about it on mumsnet and what is so offensive and off putting about it. Lipstick Alley threads talk and debate about racism , colourism privilege faced by ordinary people and celebrities, and these opinions are welcome. Nobody is exhausted about them, at I know am not because this is our life. We don’t just discuss it and leave it in the forum we live it. MM is not perfect, she is not a saint nobody is .

There is no need for the continuous dissecting of MM on these threads, she is gone, she didn’t destroy your RF, she didn’t steal anything.

I agree. It's problematical for me that a group of posters have created a community around their dislike of a woman of color. Some have even adopted names taken from a thread mocking Harrry and created a virtual clubhouse in OTBT. And that is on top of the pile-on that happened in the many "numbered" threads that include some really disgusting comments and links to very dodgy sources and commentary. It is all out of proportion to anything that she has done. That's why it is so questionable. At the very least, some people who believe that they are innocent of racist motivation should do a deep dive into the subject of unconscious bias.

What this OP seems to do though is to take any criticism of MM as racist: popping up on threads that are legitimately criticising both H&M and just calling posters racist is offputting.

That's why I stopped reading the H&M threads, as it seemed that their use of taxpayers' money couldn't even be criticised without being called racist.

I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

@MNHQ have not heard.

The trolling was easily identifiable and those posts could have easily been deleted.

But as usual they chose to side with those causing the problem and delete the thread and along with it a number of thoughtful replies as well as proof of the "subtle not so subtle racism" that thrives on MN.

The behaviour of those posters organising to derail a thread on another thread was despicable and deserved to be pointed out. What happened or happens to those posters. By taking no action either suspension or banning them @MNHQ is condoning their behaviour and at the very minimum online bullying.

I cannot say I'm surprised though

So anyone who has an opinion on a couple using public monies is a racist. Got it.

I’m done here. I guess you win rockingchair.

Yet threads on racial issues, and that includes everything from golliwogs to blackface to BLM protests, are subject to a much lighter and more hands off moderation. Posts mentioning the “other” forum are deleted within seconds, overtly racist posts often take hours. More covert racism is often allowed to stay. In the past there have been incidents of MNHQ explicitly saying they will allow a racist post or thread to remain “because it’s generating debate” - they have even used this to explain not deleting posts that use the N word in full

Those disgusting threads on golliwogs (and they are plenty) still exist.

@MNHQ what exactly is the justification for these when you know they create a hostile environment for black posters who have mentioned this continuously. It's like leaving up incel posts or men's rights posts and saying there is need for debate-no dehumanising another human being should not be up for debate. They are racist and vile.

The posters who are keen on continually banding together to gleefully pick over Meghan's 'misdemeanours' have, on countless occasions, accused rocking and others of "derailing" for debating ON TOPIC, i.e. about MM, if they are not singing the party song. Derailing is anyone who breaks up the chummy flow of spite.

This is why I think it would be helpful to have one topic and one only about MM. Or just be honest and call the "non-positive" one 'A Mumsnet club for people who loathe MM and want to tear her to shreds without being pulled up on it.'

@senecafallsRedux this is why it’s laughable to see Lipstick Alley being mentioned because I know for a fact that discussions on that forums even for those who don’t like MM have acknowledged that she was treated horribly by the press and that minority celebrities face the same thing.
It was refreshing to see MM defended when some targeted her when the video with Archie was released. Many AA saw the not so subtle racism straightaway and didn’t stand for it. Here someone called her uppity and there was not much pushback. The excuses given for using such a word were revolting.MM has done what many people white or black are entitled to do when they can’t take it anymore. Yet her, not Harry, not Andrew the paedo befriender has been accused of insulting the great British public, disrespecting the Queen and nearly destroying our beloved Monarchy .She has been accused of leaving poor W& K with a burden of carrying the monarchy and that she planned to leave all along. How is this legitimate criticism I wonder, but as the countless MM threads have shown people feel feel strongly about this woman , they have been allowed to exercise their free speech dissecting her and will continue to do so. These protestations will not last because we all know that it’s not over and it’s not like MN will do anything anyway.

The behaviour of those posters organising to derail a thread on another thread was despicable and deserved to be pointed out.

To be fair, MNHQ did delete the offending thread in OTBT, but I agree that is not enough.

I do wish that MNHQ would stop using the word "bunfight". That in and of itself is insensitive when the topic at hand is a serious one. I think that some of MN's terms of art developed when most of the discussion was around parenting issues and "breezy" sorts of discussions about rather mundane topics. It doesn't work for discussions of racism.

All rocking does is derail. You know I said this before and I'll say it again. Celebrities and many OP get flamed on threads all over MN (without anyone caring) and every so often I think an OP has been badly treated and I say so and I might even report the thread.

What I don't do is hang around reading every subsequent thread about the same poster/topic/person, keeping it in my favourites, reading them and enjoying the gossip and then swooping in to accuse people of being racist every opportunity I can.

So I would like to know why MN are so bloody afraid of seeming to be politically incorrect that they have pulled numerous
threads rather than ban the people constantly looking for drama.

Being on MN is like being in a playground where grown women get censored for having opinions that aren't nice. No where else on the internet do you get this babying and no where else are a couple of posters allowed to carry on with the same bullshit.

If this was about the taxpayers money, then why has that been targeted at MM? . People like to claim that they blame Harry too, yet they speculate endlessly about when he will finally be divorced by the Jezebel & finally come home. Some claim that they are being accused of being racist when they question the use of this taxpayer money, but the truth they have discussed this over and over and nobody prevented them from doing so. Criticisms of anyone associated with MM was given free reign, poor Tyler Perry thrown in and people speculated that he is after something from HaM and questioned where exactly he got his money. Do people do this to other white people with money, or it’s assumed a black man like Tyler surely can’t be that rich?.

It's problematical for me that a group of posters have created a community around their dislike of a woman of color.

I presume that is because you are a woman of colour?

If this was about the taxpayers money, then why has that been targeted at MM?

There have been many, many, many posts all over this forum from Republicans, people who call the entire RF (the queen down) leeches and a waste of money.

People like to claim that they blame Harry too, yet they speculate endlessly about when he will finally be divorced by the Jezebel & finally come home

I have speculated on this forum about how ill-suited the couple appear. Not because they’re a mixed couple, but because MM is hewn from grit and hustle and hard work, H is a lazy Prince. I also think MM didn’t grasp what being married to H and a working royal would entail, because I think no independent woman would sign up for it - unless she thought she could use it to her advantage. She tried to do this, and couldn’t. They quit, she quit. Absolutely nothing to do with race.

Some claim that they are being accused of being racist when they question the use of this taxpayer money, but the truth they have discussed this over and over and nobody prevented them from doing so

Nobody prevented who from doing what? Who discussed what over and over?

Criticisms of anyone associated with MM was given free reign, poor Tyler Perry thrown in and people speculated that he is after something from HaM and questioned where exactly he got his money

“Poor* Tyler Perry?! Poor??? The man is half way to being a billionaire. People question him because he’s not a household name in the UK. I live in the U.S and I’ve never heard of him. I’m not interested in the entertainment industry (or sport or whatever). Nothing to do with his race. Why would you jump to that conclusion? I posted that the luxury house lent to H&M by TP had to have had strings attached.....because he’s a businessman! You don’t get to be that rich be being magnanimous and giving out freebies. It’s pretty obvious. I say exactly the same thing about Bezos, Gates, Jobs, Buffet etc. Absolutely NOTHING to do with race. I’m beyond excited at the news that Michael Jordan is donating $100m to the drive to tackle police brutality in this country. That’s immense and I’d like to think truly magnanimous (although I’m sure it’ll be done in a tax efficient way - because that’s all how rich people do things). How many white millionaires and billionaires will follow suit? None, I venture. MJ’s contribution is a race issue. Tyler Perry offering his house rent free is not a race issue.

Do people do this to other white people with money, or it’s assumed a black man like Tyler surely can’t be that rich?

That’s an outrageously factually incorrect thing to state, not worth addressing.