Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

[rockingchaircandle]

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

^lived in the USSR.

Your post yesterday chocolately on Hunt the Black (your words and capitalisation!) was disgusting.

And thankfully MN saw this and deleted it.

The issue here is not “Why can’t MN stop really determined trolls from inventing multiple accounts.” It’s that the inconsistent moderation creates a hostile environment for BAME posters in ways that go beyond Meghan threads.

There are certain individuals (like the other MM) who cannot be named or speculated on in less than a positive way. MN are shit hot at moderating those threads, and speedy with the deletion button. They’ve consistently made clear that threads started to slag off a celeb (except Meghan) are “not in the spirit” and relatively harmless sleb gossip or “what celeb annoys you” threads are regularly deleted. Other subjects or topics, like the existence of a certain other forum, are moderated and deleted with the swiftness of an eagle spotting a wounded rat.

Yet threads on racial issues, and that includes everything from golliwogs to blackface to BLM protests, are subject to a much lighter and more hands off moderation. Posts mentioning the “other” forum are deleted within seconds, overtly racist posts often take hours. More covert racism is often allowed to stay. In the past there have been incidents of MNHQ explicitly saying they will allow a racist post or thread to remain “because it’s generating debate” - they have even used this to explain not deleting posts that use the N word in full! Last year multiple posters reported a poster who was clearly a previously banned troll, where we all knew it was this person under a new name, but MNHQ dragged their heels on checking IP addresses for weeks. I have an email somewhere from MNHQ where they said “yes we’e compared [new poster] IP and it is [old poster] how annoying! We can’t seem to get rid of her!” But posters had been asking then to do that for weeks and they didn’t.

No lizzie1970a, the many, many posts of yours which were deleted for being abusive were disgusting.

It’s clear that some posters derive great pleasure from seeing BAME posters getting wound up, and will deliberately goad them (not just in Meghan threads). There’s a real glee that some posters take in the knowledge they have upset a black poster, or bullied a black poster into leaving. There are certain posters who I don’t think even care about Meghan one way or the other, she’s just a convenient tool to hassle black posters with.

If you find a BAME poster using graphic language to describe how it feels to try to exist in a culture of such deeply ingrained racism “disgusting” you need to have a good long look at yourself.

@Winterlife

Mumsnet was correct about bunfighting. There were no racist posts on the last 2 threads deleted. One didn't even have any posts about HaM.

Well the threads have gone, so we can't check now.

The first one definitely had racist posts.
The second one, as always happens, was set up in The royal family section despite not having any relevance to the RF, with the same title as the deleted thread with 'HaM' removed.
It's gaslighting. They already had a thread in Off topic board.
It was just posted to continue the childish game of attrition.
I'm sure they'll get away with it. There's 2 more posts today.

lizzie1970a is making a very transparent attempt to derail the thread and get it deleted.

White supremacists like Lizzie will stop at nothing to silence black women.

@Winterlife

You should also be careful about what you want deleted. I left in the USSR, where media was controlled, and books were censored. I once tried to bring a book into the country as a gift - a book that was originally printed in the USSR, but was no longer available. It was confiscated. I was told there was absolutely nothing wrong with the book, but the publisher (a German publishing house) was, because they also printed dissident literature.

You challenge racism by quoting racist posts and asking the poster how they can justify those views. You don't stop it by censorship.

You can't challenge racism here as the little clique of people start personal attacks and claim their threads are being derailed.

But this isn't a free speech cause. MN can choose if it wants to host discussions with racism and slander. That create unwelcoming environments. At the moment, they claim anti-racism is important to them, so hopefully they will be taking action.

Thank you OP. It was a good thread , it’s a pity all the other posts have been deleted. Just watched a special about BAME NHS workers who risked their lives during the height of the pandemic and continue to work tirelessly. Some remember the long term racism and discrimination they have faced at work, in a country they call home and from some people who they would do anything( even give their own lives ) .
Some of these people were recruited from their countries , only to come here and be treated so horribly and often told to go home.I know such people in my own life and I know they continue to work hard, give their very best and often without support from the top.

Why am I mentioning all this , because it can sometimes feel some in society deserve to be treated with humanity that is afforded others.There is no need for the continuous dissecting of MM on these threads, she is gone, she didn’t destroy your RF, she didn’t steal anything. How can people admit there is injustice in this country and then at the same not recognise that some of the MM discussions were at times unfair , racist and horrible. We are told repeatedly that this has not been the case and that everyone has a right not to like her and that some of us that feel discomfort with some of the comments want to stifle to free speech. I know of other posters who left for the reasons stated above . See nobody has that power to control the debate and stifle the free speech. I don’t know many POC who posted on HaM threads and didn’t notice the subtle and not so subtle racism.

I doubt Mumsnet will make a statement, which is disappointing. A lot of companies are now awake to the injustices POC face and are trying or at least pretending to engage and show some Solidarity as this is just not an American problem. But at times in UK when a person, a company , a government department etc acknowledges prejudice publicly they get turned upon and get attacked because ‘ we are the most tolerant, welcoming country in the world’. Well we better be, the Empire stretched all over the world🤷‍♀️.

There was no racism in the last thread that you did, in fact, derail. Nor is there any in the current thread started by Needs that you have injected yourself into. With you, it absolutely is a censorship issue.

My god (bangs head against wall) OP you get interesting, thought provoking threads deleted by your stance.

claimed I’m destroyed my credibility because I said not everyone rejected/challenged the poster who made up a horrible lie claiming to have insider knowledge of Meghan hitting Charlotte.

No, @ChocolatelyAsFuck, you said that you were the only poster to challenge that. Which wasn't true, and people said so. I see that has now changed to 'not everyone rejected it'. I believe this is what you refer to as gaslighting when you identify it coming from posters you disagree with.

I do not think Mumsnet should allow threads about H&M at the moment, because they are a dog whistle for racist posters to indulge in subtle and not-so-subtle racism. Damn right we should censor racist posts against a woc.

My god (bangs head against wall) OP you get interesting, thought provoking threads deleted by your stance. We're just not allowed to discuss M&H. The end.

@Winterlife

There was no racism in the last thread that you did, in fact, derail. Nor is there any in the current thread started by Needs that you have injected yourself into. With you, it absolutely is a censorship issue.

If I disagree with a point then it's labelled derailing to avoid the discussion. It's a transparent tactic. It then moves up to personal attacks. That was all there on the last thread. That never gets called derailment though.

This is a public forum. On the other thread I am replying to, I've been brought up by other posters. Not sure why you're telling me I shouldn't respond. I'm not the one with censorship issues. This is all part of these childish games by the same people.

You didn't disagree with a point, though. You continued your harangue about everything being racist.

You certainly do have censorship issues.

ButteryPuffin I was the only poster to challenge it on the thread I saw it on, at the time I saw it, which was not the original thread where the claim started. Possibly others challenged it after me which I did not see.

I never posted on the original thread because I don’t go into those threads, and never saw the original thread till now. Two separate threads.

And other posters engaged in hyperbole saying “everyone” challenged it and “no one” believed it, and also stating that the post making the allegation was deleted. It’s true that most posters on the original thread challenged it, but not all. Some supported it and said it could be true. And literally right now there’s a post still visible from someone claiming their DH is high up in VIP circles and has been personally told “Meghan hit Charlotte” by multiple royal staffers. That post was not and still has not been deleted.

Ah, 'harangue'. 'Go on about racism'. I responded to posts. I am allowed to do that. But as they don't agree with the majority, it's labelled nagging, haranguing, scolding etc. Very transparent.

The censorship argument doesn’t wash on a privately owned forum that deletes loads of stuff and pretty much outright bans several topics and people, bans posters for being GC, and generally doesn’t allow criticism threads for any celebrity (bar politicians) as a point of principle.

On one hand this is a 'public forum' in rocking's view where you can't expect to express views and then not like others disagreeing with them. On the other hand it's a 'a privately owned forum that deletes loads of stuff and pretty much outright bans several topics and people' as chocolatety says. Both those statements seem valid, but then of course they come into conflict. And both groups say they don't want censorship but do say they want the other group to stop saying the things they are saying. Both groups think the other group misrepresent them and the way they post - again, some validity in both views. Everyone remembers threads differently yet people post confident absolute statements about what they contained. None of it promotes agreement and consensus and no one wants to compromise or agree to disagree. I can see why MN are scratching their heads about how to moderate.

Banning racism is not “censorship”.

If MN is able to swiftly and easily delete any reference to rival forums or litigious celebrities it shouldn’t be this hard to not let racism run rampant.