Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

One of those is LGB too haha

That isn't actually possible, GG.
You can't be Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual, all at once.

pratchett So now a woman who refuses to become intimidated when asked about her gender but simply says 'I'm a woman' and doesn't get drawn into proving it is a narcissist

I wasn't asking about YOUR sex. It's narcissistic to assume I was.

I asked what you mean when you say 'woman'. Surely you can't mean yourself every time you use the word.

How is that intimidatingim asking what you mean. Don't you know?

Thought I'd point out that the catalyst for my meeting with Penny Mordaunt was to have a conversation in particular about women in the workplace and some ideas we have about how to close the gender pay gap. Obviously there will be opportunity to raise other important issues but those of you who've assumed this meeting is happening solely because of trans issues are erroneous.

Kitchen, you have made laugh - so we are 'congregating on Mumsnet' and 'bringing infamy' on the site are we? That sounds like the Witchfinder General done by Monty Python. Are there hordes of blue-haired interns running around Mumsnet HQ shrieking 'Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me'?
If I owned Mumsnet I would be proud and humbled by the presence of so many intelligent, articulate and insightful women, choosing to use my site, and I would be proud of having created a space where women felt safe and free to speak, and defend it fiercely. Shame the current owner doesn't seem to hold that position.
Maybe I am strange for holding to Tom Paine's view that "Let them call me rebel and welcome, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of devils were I to make a whore of my soul."

Justine If you are talking about the sex pay gap, may I recommend a read of this thread (and the one that followed it.)? Genuinely one of the best threads I’ve read here on MN - nails basically every issue around the subject.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3082251-Men-whose-lives-are-facilitated-by-women-how-did-this-happen

Nb for Penny: if self ID goes through, the statistics on pay gaps will be meaningless (as well as some other non important shit like serious sexual crime which clearly the government cares not one whit about.) so no need to worry! It’ll all sort itself out!

(Clearly dark tone of dripping sarcasm there.)

But do read that facilitated men if you haven’t justine - it’s a good ‘un.

Hi Justine

As you said in your OP,
"You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too."

While I appreciate the nature of the discussion of the meeting was about women in the workplace / gender paygap, hopefully you highlighted this thread to Penny Mordant (so she might share it within the department of women & equalities). It contains a great deal of information and background to the concerns of 'many Mumsnetters.'

There is another similarly important thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

Thought I'd point out that the catalyst for my meeting with Penny Mordaunt was to have a conversation in particular about women in the workplace and some ideas we have about how to close the gender pay gap. Obviously there will be opportunity to raise other important issues but those of you who've assumed this meeting is happening solely because of trans issues are erroneous.

Well that's ironic isn't it? Given that if self id comes in, conversations around the whole idea of 'women' in the workplace and the gender pay gap will become pretty much meaningless.

I don’t think anyone actually thought that Justine was going to see Penny M to stand up for women over trans issues, did they?

Whatever ‘women’ means.

From 2011
www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jan/27/theresa-may-attacks-dominc-raab-feminist
Theresa May attacks Tory MP Dominic Raab over 'feminist bigots' remark
'Labelling feminists as obnoxious bigots is not the way forward,' home secretary tells Raab

Theresa May today slapped down a backbench Tory MP who called feminists "obnoxious bigots", telling him his comments were "not the way forward" if he wanted to tackle sexism in the workplace.

Dominic Raab, MP for Esher and Walton, claimed men were "getting a raw deal" amid a row over the cost of implementing the Labour government's Equality Act.

Today he became Brexit Secretary and will be in part responsible for 'red tape' relating to women's rights post Brexit.

I find his appointment concerning...

Its funny how politics are very circular.

JustineMumsnet

I don't think it's difficult to understand why many women thought you were going to talk about trans issues.

If I recall correctly you announced it on the day that Penny Mordaunt talked about the consultation, on a thread about trans issues. It seems as though that's exactly what you would be talking about.

And course it's absolutely brilliant that you are going to discuss the pay differential between men and women. Something of which you no doubt have personal experience.

The thread linked above by Bowlofbabelfish is truly excellent.

It shows the reality of what is happening, rather than the theory based on answers to questions.

That thread is based on answers to questions that are never asked.

@JustineMumsnet
Would you say that your ideas about the sex pay gap have changed at all since you expressed them in the FT in 2015?

Because I remember heartily disagreeing with you then and feeling you did women a great disservice.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2502617-To-think-Justine-Roberts-should-not-have-written-this-in-the-FT

'"As far as I have seen, then, the gender pay gap has very little to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women."

"The second big problem is that women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion."

That's what you do - bristle at a different view, see if you can taint the speaker in some way or otherwise shame/sneer the post into oblivion and if not, decide it's not worth bothering with because it's too long (despite these threads and everything about them being legendarily long and repetitive - and of course the need for anyone talking to you to back up and qualify whatever they say).

You may think everyone agrees with you because the posts tend to be self-congratulatory. The PMs I receive thanking me for saying what others are only thinking would suggest otherwise.

Rather than seeing people like me as the enemy or inferior to you on grounds of privilege or intellect, I suggest that you try seeing yourselves as one view on a spectrum where many equally valid perspectives exist. And a way forward can only be found by working out a compromise with respect for other positions, especially those held by other people you choose to recognise as women.

I didn't think you would change. You're having too much fun the way you are. But I did want to leave it on the record that this is how you respond to people (even women) who disagree with you.

suggest that you try seeing yourselves as one view on a spectrum where many equally valid perspectives exist.

Many perspectives may exist, but in any objective discussion they will not all be of equal validity. ‘Which is the best flavour of ice cream’ would be an example where anyone’s opinion is as valid as anyone else’s. ‘Can humans change sex?’ Is an objective question and the answer is no. So while people may have all sorts of views on spectrums and what have you, their opinions are not in fact equally valid. Ditto for really any argument that concerns science, engineering, medicine, or any sort of objective factual reality.

The idea that everyone’s opinion is equal is one reason why we are in this mess - as I’ve said before, when I get on the plane, I sit down and let the pilot fly.

You may think everyone agrees with you because the posts tend to be self-congratulatory.

Lol. I don't think everyone agrees with me. I've yet to see someone use a coherent argument as to why not, though.

Including you.

You seem to be telling women off for what? Not deciding in advance that everyone's opinion is valid and equal, and therefore it's pointless talking about it?

The reason you see everyone agreeing and not giving equal weight to people who disagree, has got nothing to do with everyone having a valid opinion, and everything to do with very few people having a valid counter argument.

Maybe if people posted on the boards instead of pm-ing we could chat about what they think. If they keep it to themselves or discuss in pms we can’t.

Maybe if people posted on the boards instead of pm-ing we could chat about what they think.

Ha! You should think twice about why people don't do as you suggest. Kim Jong-un probably thinks people should air their views more also. Then finds himself having a knee-jerk reaction to poisonous ideology etc.

The reason people are not more forthcoming is because what you're doing here is propaganda, not debate. Not playing very nicely either. And I think you know it.

Not playing very nicely either.

Ah, well. That’s me told, with a side dose of right back atcha.

Seriously, people, lurkers, PMers, if you’ve something to say, post it. We can chat.

Oh stop it. We are masters of debate propaganda is TWAW TWAW TWAW on and on. Section 28, hysterectomies, erasing my existence and all that. THAT is propaganda. Why do you come here if it upsets you that we know what men and women are.

Men are of the sex that produces motile gametes. If this is anyone here, do the math.

Lol. I don't think everyone agrees with me. I've yet to see someone use a coherent argument as to why not, though.

This is the thing, isn't it?

Ha! You should think twice about why people don't do as you suggest. Kim Jong-un probably thinks people should air their views more also

kitchenrollinrollinrollin earlier on this thread you commented, "You do not have the political corner or the media corner."

I responded, "This statement of yours is true and therein is the central issue. Its about power."

Worth considering?

Many perspectives may exist, but in any objective discussion they will not all be of equal validity. ‘Which is the best flavour of ice cream’ would be an example where anyone’s opinion is as valid as anyone else’s. ‘Can humans change sex?’ Is an objective question and the answer is no. So while people may have all sorts of views on spectrums and what have you, their opinions are not in fact equally valid.

THIS

Not playing very nicely either. And I think you know it.

Women must be nice eh?

Is Kim Jong-un the new Godwin's law do you think? I've seen him cited a few times now.

But yeah, if you can't articulate what you mean, it's hard to discuss it.

I think that's half the problem though: essentially the TRA movement and mantras are illogical and based on "be nice".

I doubt people can easily articulate why gender critical points of view are wrong (for example, "you can't really change sex" or "the current statistics on transgender suicide are manipulative and incorrect") because the other side isn't really about facts, it's about feelings.

This is why the two sides will never meet I think, and why a debate is difficult, if not impossible. It's why it's easier to shout "terf" and "transphobia" than say "yeah okay you have a point there, but..."