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Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

571 replies

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:22

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

OP posts:
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9
Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 14:52

Your response has been to suggest she and others are against women and would like to kill you all on a hill - even crucify you in some particularly self-absorbed orgies of victim identification.

LOL Grin I suppose "give someone enough rope" is a death threat too?

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 14:56

Justine (and all others at mumsnet) are judged harshly for making the most personal, basic, truthful observation that no one with a brain cell (of any gender) could disagree with (that a woman's life would have been harder had she been trans).

It's not a "truthful observation". It's spoken from a position of privilege, as I suspect your comments are. Many people's lives are hard, not just trans people's. Oppression Olympics is not what it's about. Class analysis is a far more useful framework for addressing structural inequality, and it is in direct conflict with transactivism.

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 14:57

I don't know what you think other women owe you but we don't. We're allowed to say what we like.

DARVO. Who is stopping you doing so, exactly?

Pratchet · 08/07/2018 14:58

What do you mean by 'trans', kitchen?

Do you mean sex dysphoria? Plenty of women have the most terrible dysphoria.

Like any other woman, she can give them

What do you mean by 'woman' here?

kitchenrollinrollinrollin · 08/07/2018 14:59

Doesn't change my point. You can't, and shouldn't try, to tell someone else what to say or what to think. Whether you perceive them as privileged or not (and many, many people are ridiculously privileged in this culture with no appreciation of what they have in comparison with the rest of the world). You don't have the right to speak for others or to have your views regurgitated by others. You certainly don't have the right to speak for women.

Pratchet · 08/07/2018 15:01

Today 14:58 Pratchet

What do you mean by 'trans', kitchen?

Do you mean sex dysphoria? Plenty of women have the most terrible dysphoria.

Like any other woman, she can give them

What do you mean by 'woman' here?

kitchenrollinrollinrollin · 08/07/2018 15:09

And yes, it is a truthful observation. She doesn't need to defeat you in a battle of words to have a right to it (and neither do I). It's a truthful observation because it is her truth and spoken with sincerity. You don't have a right to rule out other people's truth or even judge whether it's true or not. You cannot know. Pretending you do is alienating to many who value the right to hold and voice their own opinion. I'm a woman (not interested in working out just how I know) and I know that no view I hold is worthy of being superimposed on every other woman.

The irony of declaring that you will not be silenced while ruling that other people with different views should shut up. Then tearing anyone with a different opinion to pieces in a very personal way while talking as if you are bleeding out at this very moment.

You may get plenty of people to join your club but it's not the same thing as listening to every voice and acknowledging that personal truth as valid. Which is something that you, as much as anyone else, must do. I've read some of these threads and reflected - many of the thoughts expressed I have personally found very interesting and thought-provoking. But gosh, your sense of entitlement and elaborate victim mentality is ridiculous. Life is hard for every single one of us in different ways. My life is harder because I'm a woman in some ways, much less hard than some men's lives in others, very much less hard because of where I live in others. In one way or another, we're all spartacus and we're all...whoever the other guy was.

Pratchet · 08/07/2018 15:11

Hello?
Today 14:58 Pratchet

What do you mean by 'trans', kitchen?

Do you mean sex dysphoria? Plenty of women have the most terrible dysphoria.

Like any other woman, she can give them

What do you mean by 'woman' here?

PsychoLibrarian · 08/07/2018 15:31

Kitchenrollinrollinrollin, the fact that Justine has got face time with government ministers is because she runs Mumsnet. It is naive at best to think that any of the woman on here are privileged enough or connected enough to have our voices heard at that level. If ministers are speaking to someone who owns a website like this it will be to find out more about women's views. In that context, I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask Justine not to claim to speak for me because I have no confidence in her ability to do so, and do not believe that she will represent the views of gender-critical feminists in good faith. As for the dig at my reference to crucifixion in connection to Spartacus, I think that you missed the historical reference and metaphor there, and I found your sneering tone patronising and (in the revoltingly twee term seemingly favoured here) 'goady'. I think that women with the views you express are harmful to women's rights, and I also feel betrayed by those of my own sex who are prepared to take the part of a deeply misogynist and unsavoury men's rights ideology over that of women. Your contempt for women like me shines through your posts, and yet I and others like me are expected to politely go away and shut up? Not going to happen. I am still Spartacus.

Pratchet · 08/07/2018 16:04

Huh. No answers there.

ballsballsballs · 08/07/2018 16:08

Still here, still Spartacus.

Pratchet · 08/07/2018 16:18

Spartacus. Lesbartacus. Whatever. No appropriation here but I stand with the L #getthelout

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2018 16:32

When your life is already negatively affected, and you know there are women who have it worse than some trans people, and that's all been ignored or belittled, I think it's fair enough to call someone out for making a comment which is extremely flippant and privileged and sounds bloody clueless about the reality of some women here.

People can have different opinions sure.

But if some one is saying they are going to express the strength of feeling and concerns that are being expressed on MN (and the reason MN is being talked to is BECAUSE of those views not those to the contrary) then you would expect the person doing so, to understand that position even if they disagree with it personally. Otherwise the whole exercise is a total scam and about controlling the women on here and getting them to STFU.

The flippancy of that comment suggests that the point has been missed. And that's a real concern.

What point is there in Justine explaining why women are so wound up about it all, if she doesn't get why women so so wound up about it all?

All it would be would be MN actively working against those women, whilst claiming to be acting for them.

So that is why it does matter. And that stands regardless of Justine's personal opinion.

Pratchet · 08/07/2018 16:37

Even if Justine was secretly GC and throwing TRA off the scent, it would be impossible for her to have a private GC conversation with Penny Mordaunt.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/07/2018 16:42

Wow, Kitchen. Way to reveal you spectacularly missed the point on Spartacus. And your contempt for women makes me curious as to your own skin in this game.

PsychoLibrarian · 08/07/2018 18:20

Prawn of the Patriarchy, I wondered too. I also wonder whether ny first reaction of 'we've got a live mansplainer' was correct.

Datun · 08/07/2018 18:21

PsychoLibrarian

I would say yes.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/07/2018 20:23

Yep. Grin We're getting a whole rash of the little buggers. Must be doing something right.

kitchenrollinrollinrollin · 08/07/2018 20:44

You've really proved the point I was making. A woman disagrees with the feminists here and your response is to invalidate her viewpoint by (a) agreeing with each other that she's probably not a woman and (b) is probably too privileged to know what she's talking about. (I very much doubt I'm more privileged than the majority here). All this knowledge about an anonymous poster because they don't agree with you. The subtext being that your view is the only valid view a woman could have - while of course paying lip service to the notion that women can have other views and that is perfectly valid because if there's one thing a feminist would never do, it's silence other women! This stance is dripping with hypocrisy.

I genuinely believe that there would be a different litany of human rights abuses if the Spartacus women had more power than at present - different victims, fresh abuses. I didn't start out with this belief but I've realised you're no better than the misogynists out there - you just want the pendulum swinging as far as possible in the opposite direction. From the assumptions made about women who disagree, right through to Justine who offers you a forum yet doesn't say exactly what you want on command - you simply want to stamp out and invalidate anyone who disagrees. Trust me, that's not how the victim of a crucifixion behaves. I don't care who you are or what you've been through - silencing the opposition by mob rule is nothing to aspire to and won't set anyone free.

You should really get out of the echo chamber. This is not a forum for debate. You don't know how to have a debate, unless it's one poster having the temerity to disagree with a group of women who instantly agree they must be dealing with a rich, male, troll. Because who could possibly disagree otherwise?

I will say it again. I think you have good points. But your unwillingness to allow any other viewpoint and your eagerness to silence any other viewpoint (using tactics you detest men using) convinces me that the kind of feminists represented on mumsnet shouldn't have the power they aspire to.

psycho I would respectfully make the point that no one is crucifying you and no one is likely to wish to. Talking about yourself in those terms is ludicrously self-involved.

red I think you're wrong. It is possible to understand the arguments you're making but still not give each point the weight that you are attaching to it. It's called having a different view. The comment from Justine was not necessarily 'flippant' (and this is where feminists are ridiculously offendable) - it could as easily been heartfelt. You didn't like it because she didn't agree with you and emerged from months of this propaganda machine with one of the same bottom lines she started out with. That's her right and it doesn't mean she doesn't understand or respect your views! I have a strong suspicion Justine is only too well acquainted with the ins and outs of the endlessly repeated arguments clogging up her website! She didn't ask you to use mumsnet for this purpose and I very much doubt is benefiting financially from your presence (or would go bust if you left).

Justine's guilty of not chucking you out which is why you have gathered here - that doesn't entitle you to anything from her. She hasn't invited people to hear her speak on this issue and hasn't claimed she can speak for all women as far as I'm aware. She has as much of a right to speak for all women as you do, which is to say - none. It's not her fault that none of you have started a website for parents (never solely women!) with a huge following. Suggesting she doesn't wish the best for you because she will not parrot your views is very, very controlling. Why should anyone have to speak for you if they don't hold the views personally. Where has feminism got to that you seem to wish she shut the fuck up about whatever her own unfortunate beliefs are (obviously the regrettable result of confused white privilege) and spout the party line? That is not feminism!

There are a lot of women in the world, and on mumsnet, who hold views that are less extreme than those expressed on the feminist board here, while respecting the views of more radical feminists and understanding where they are coming from (and where other women who don't call themselves feminists at all are coming from too).

In agreeing to let you all be Spartacus here despite clearly being bored to the back teeth of politely trying to encourage language that will not alienate any trans parents wishing to use the boards, (courtesy that is dismissed as patronising by a rather ungrateful and entitled mob victim mentality from what I can see) I would say Justine and her crew have earned a right to talk to Penny about what they're witnessing on the boards here. If anyone has had to listen endlessly to what you have to say, she has. If you haven't convinced her in every respect, maybe its because your argument isn't infallible or because there's more than one side to the issue, rather than Justine being nasty. Or rich. Or not a proper woman.

Penny doesn't necessarily want to talk to Justine to hear your views repeated verbatim. She could, after all, spend half an hour here on the feminist board reading through the threads if she wished - or have a researcher do it for her. You're not the only women here. I have seen many, many posters voicing disgust at the views expressed on these issues on the feminist board. Perhaps you don't like that Justine might give that information too?

Waddlelikeapenguin · 08/07/2018 20:56

kitchen pink news says only 18% of people want gender self ID. So the MN feminist board is with the majority Smile a whopping 82%!

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/07/2018 21:01

Gosh. Wall of text. Pretty diagnostic.

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 21:26

And yes, it is a truthful observation. She doesn't need to defeat you in a battle of words to have a right to it (and neither do I). It's a truthful observation because it is her truth and spoken with sincerity.

Oh yes I forgot all opinions are of equal validity to people like you. Except the ones you don't like.

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 21:27

right through to Justine who offers you a forum

Tugging my forelock right now, believe me.

Pratchet · 08/07/2018 21:31

A woman disagrees with the feminists here and

What did you mean by 'woman' again? Must have missed it

thebewilderness · 08/07/2018 22:26

(I very much doubt I'm more privileged than the majority here).

Do you really want to play oppression olympics with the women here?
Do you?
Would you like to take on the "privileged" transwidows as well, just to show how woke you are?