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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Could you explain the deletions for calling out racism please?

231 replies

paxillin · 10/05/2018 00:09

Some, but not all perhaps harshly worded, but how else do you say racism is shit? I am talking about the deletions on the thread about the golliwog mugs.

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 14/05/2018 17:37

"many people ridiculed me with the word "tingle", and mocked me"

That is not at all what happened.

And nobody cares about your grievances about another forum. Ffs give it up.

user789653241 · 14/05/2018 19:13

Thanks, Cote, but that is what happened, afterwards, there was lots of enlarged "tingling", "tingled", "spiderly tingled sense" etc, etc, after I said my ds had bad allergic reaction, by not the person I originally reacted to, but by others. Few even posted on someone else's thread on MN "tingling" to provoke my reaction assuming I was the OP, but, I wasn't. I know no one cares, but it is what really happened. You can see it all, if you look, unless they deleted all. Smile

user789653241 · 14/05/2018 20:15

And I am not bothered about it at all, just sceptical of people who can do that trying to stand up for discrimination of any kind.

CoteDAzur · 14/05/2018 21:07

Nobody was talking about you there.

You are bringing up something that was an overreaction in the first place on a completely different forum, just to have a go at OP who is fighting the good fight here.

C8H10N4O2 · 14/05/2018 21:39

@SophieLMumsnet

As BlushingCrows says - we can't do much about what's said on other sites

Indeed. However despite the attempts at derailing I'd still like the MN view on the way the TG inadvertently enable discriminatory posts and "fake news" tropes to stand whilst restricting the ability to challenge them.

As per my post upthread - common tropes of racism/disablism/*ism-of-your-choice are regularly trotted out on these threads. Sometimes I've seen the same yarn several times within a week in different places.

So I can report that post:

  • You can't prove its a pack of lies, you are unlikely to delete it unless its a PBP and frankly its playing whack-a-mole sometimes
  • If I tell the PP "bollocks" I get deleted for breaking TG
  • If I say on thread that I think its a pack of lies I get deleted for troll hunting.

Net effect, *ist propaganda tropes are left to stand, implicitly approved by MN.

So how about where such issues are raised we are allowed to challenge the veracity/authenticity in public, just as the tropes are left to stand in public?

JaneyEJones · 14/05/2018 22:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

immortalmarble · 14/05/2018 22:16

We should never give up challenging prejudice janey

Ever.

CoteDAzur · 14/05/2018 22:50

None of your business, Janey.

BlushingCrows · 15/05/2018 03:53

@JaneyEJones perhaps direct your arguments to those on Reddit, I am sure they will be willing to discuss the issue at hand. In the meantime, I am interested in the points raised by @C8H10N4O2 and MNHQ's response

MistressDeeCee · 15/05/2018 04:17

Id like to know why MNHQ lets racist threads flourish and leaves racist posters to spew their ignorance all over the site, while deleting those who call out the racism

Me too.

Even trying to report a thread which on the whole is so unkind to PoC..eg dismissing feelings about history of enslavement, people mocking outrage and upset at what KW said, posts/threads that anyone with 1/2 a brain can see is designed to spark racist comments and assumptions - is futile.

I've concluded PoC don't matter in the face of those who weirdly again and again in so many different forms, want to have a go at black women. I tend not to respond anymore as that's what they want - to talk about black women then when one of us responds, they're in their element - a chance to minimise and dismiss..

I can give as good as I get - but I'm direct and concise when I challenge racism and in the face of metaphorical white tears, I've no doubt MN would delete my response.

If we comment we get whitesplaining. Those white posters who see and call out the racism for what it is get their replies picked to pieces.

It all really feels a bit Daily Fail at the moment

Google 'Mumsnet Golliwog Threads' to see the sheer number of times they've been discussed over the years. Ridiculous.

MistressDeeCee · 15/05/2018 04:26

The disablism thread was disgusting also.

user789653241 · 15/05/2018 05:55

immortalmarble

"We should never give up challenging prejudice, ever"

Indeed. But it seems like it doesn't apply to me. Everything I say is fake/lies/ made up, or in your words, prejudice.

immortalmarble · 15/05/2018 06:53

Because it’s not about you irvine

It’s about something far deeper and ultimately far more sinister than a silly spat elsewhere.

My daughter is currently in a relationship with a man who is of Indian heritage. Have a look at this thread. The OP is pregnant and is repeatedly being told her child will be “cute” by others - because the child will be mixed race. Let’s be clear here: others aren’t saying “aw, you two are so good looking, the baby will be gorgeous!” They are explicitly stating that the child will be “cute” because he or she will be mixed race.

And some of the replies are:

My friend looks like a Viking maid, people comment her baby will be blond ... is that racist too?

they are trying to be nice. Get used to it.

just people trying to be nice to you

i can see how it might be tiresome. But I actually think people are being nice

if your baby looks anything like my friends mixed race daughter he or she will be stunning

i think mixed race children are interesting

That’s from the first page.

Do you see the problem? Do you see how many people are being nice? “Nice”, in this context, is not only patronising in the extreme but has the effect of firstly, turning children from a mixed cultural background into a breed apart, not a person at all but a ‘thing’ separate from them and if checked can be spluttered over with hands apart and mouths an O of indignation But I was being NICE and secondly, denies racism. It does exist, not here, no sir, nothing to see. We see this from one of the first replies. Why, having a mixed race baby is the same as one with curly blonde hair don’t you know? Bam goes years of oppression, then!

Then we have the ‘my toddler said’ “game” - here is one such example; I don’t have time to go through the several other pages but you can see yourself, first page someone’s toddler called an Asian family ‘p**is’ (muddled with makka pakka) and someone else’s toddler called someone with dwarfism a name. I just found that there with a quick search.

Those threads are pretty revealing, they pop up on probably a six week cycle and they are always hateful. Yet people find them utterly hilarious - again, like the whine of i am being nice this time it is well, it’s my toddler, and she is only three!

You can’t be held account for being “nice”, even if your niceness is patronising and condescending in the extreme. Or for what your toddler said - why, he’s a toddler! And as for what you may think about celebrities, well why, white celebrities get discussed too and talk about playing the race card.

To go back to my first point, my daughter is of course beautiful to me but objectively is no more or less lovely than any other young woman in her very early twenties. As such, any child she may have would likely as not be ordinarily lovely too. Why, then, would people think of her baby as ‘interesting’, especially ‘cute’ because it would be the product of sex between a white British woman and an Indian man? And why is that racist? Why is commenting on Meghan racist when I criticise Kate too? Why is what my child said racist?

The answer is because in all of those cases, the original post - whatever it is - acts like a key unlocking some pretty ugly attitudes. People aren’t stupid: they know they can’t state explicitly that mixed race children are in their eyes at least akin to an exotic pairing between two animals - so not really human at all - that Meghan is just a little too black to claim the British throne and that their toddlers voice something so dark and ugly inside them that they wouldn’t recognise it themselves if it walked up to them wearing a BNP flag and punched them around the head with it.

Yet I can see it and so can others and the more we say we can see it, the more others do. And that’s the only way of ultimately removing it.

user789653241 · 15/05/2018 07:43

immortalmarble, yes, I can understand your argument, as being different race myself, and having a child who is mixed race and have lots of needs. We face lots of difficulty everyday.
You say people sometimes display pretty ugly attitude, and you are against it. But what I am sceptical about is, for people to display pretty ugly attitude on somewhere, and calling for good cause on the other, and expect everyone to respect it, because it's for the good cause. To me, it's very hypocritical and that's why I felt I had to say something in the first place. Never my intention to derail this thread, and hope MNHQ act for the good cause.

immortalmarble · 15/05/2018 07:52

It was a word, not an attitude.

A word not known, swiftly apologised for and retracted.

At the risk of sounding like a bad Boyzone cover, they’re only words.

JaneyEJones · 15/05/2018 08:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

user789653241 · 15/05/2018 08:04

Yes of course, everything on the internet is just set of a word. We can never really see their attitude. How to interpret words are up to individuals.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/05/2018 08:28

Never my intention to derail this thread, and hope MNHQ act for the good cause.

I'm glad to hear you are going to stop then because, like many people reading these posts I have no idea what you are banging on about. Spats from place A being argued in place B is generally doomed to failure and undermines your own credibility.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/05/2018 08:29

immortalmarble, yes, I can understand your argument, as being different race myself

That comment is quite telling in how MN feels at the moment. It feels very white rather than a place where you assume all comers.

user789653241 · 15/05/2018 08:42

C8H10N4O2, yes, indeed, I will shut up.

user789653241 · 15/05/2018 08:57

One more thing C8H10N4O2 before I shut up, I never felt that way on MN, it's more about real life. I had no negativeness towards me just because I was foreign/have different opinions on MN. Contrary to that, there were people who actually explained what I was trying to say to others to help me. MN is great place of support for me.

C8H10N4O2 · 15/05/2018 09:35

C8H10N4O2, yes, indeed, I will shut up.

This is, of course, not what I said. I commend anyone to avoid bringing spats from one place into another.

That does not preclude discussing the issue at hand.

immortalmarble · 15/05/2018 10:00

I really think stepping in the way of a serious discussion of this nature in an attempt to settle old scores is ridiculous.

Tartanscarf · 15/05/2018 10:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

paxillin · 15/05/2018 10:13

I think one way around the problem is to read the posts people have responded to so strongly.

If someone challenges a comment robustly ("fuck off with the racism"/ "stop the gender stereotyping bollocks"); the post they responded to should be read, not just the reported post. Quite often they need to be deleted if they cannot be challenged. Even without personal attacks, they are almost invariably not in the spirit.

OP posts: