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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ here with an update on our recent moderation decisions

306 replies

KateMumsnet · 09/08/2017 13:44

Hi all

We thought we should come and address some of your recent points about our moderation, and particularly the worries you have about whether MNers have been taken in by a troll over the last few months, and how MNHQ has handled the issue.

Lots of you have probably missed our previous posts, so the plan is to bring everything together in one place and explain why we’ve been pretty firm about shutting down speculation on this case. We missed an opportunity to do so earlier and it’s led to lots of confusion - we’re very sorry about that, and we want to put it right now as far as we can.

So this is where we’re at: we don't have any evidence to suggest that a fraud has taken place, or that any MNers have been conned. As far as we can tell – and we have looked as carefully as we’ll ever be able to – the poster in question is the person he says he is: the father of a little boy whose mother has just died.

As we’ve said before, we can’t be 100% certain of anyone’s real life identity - it's simply not within our capabilities to know whether the person we’ve spoken to on the phone and via email and who’s been posting on the board is the same as the person of the same name and circumstances who exists elsewhere on the internet. What we do know is that we haven’t seen anything to suggest that money that kind Mumsnetters have donated has been misappropriated or misused - if we had, we would of course have involved the police.

Because MNers are understandably worried and upset, the idea has taken hold that wrongdoing has taken place. But, to be completely clear and to the best of our knowledge - it hasn’t. If you have evidence to the contrary, please get in touch with us immediately.

There have been deletions all over the shop on this - we know this must be incredibly frustrating and that loads of you still have questions and worries that you want to discuss. But we hope you’ll understand that we just can’t allow speculation or conjecture: the consequences if we do are too dreadful, for the family concerned on the one hand, but also for MNers, who are legally responsible for things they say on the boards which turn out to be unfounded.

Two posters have said on the board that they’ve received messages, off Mumsnet, which they felt were inappropriate and worrying - one of these posters reported this direct to MNHQ. We’ve been back to her, of course, but she's now told us definitively that she does not want to pursue it further and has de-regged. The conversation she describes did not take place on MN, and so there’s nowhere further that we can take that, unfortunately. We’ve of course been through the PMs on the account in question and there is nothing there that we’d characterise as harassment of any kind.

Despite all this, we suspended that individual’s account a few days ago, simply because we felt that his continued presence on MN was unlikely to do him, or MNers, any good.

We do see why the existence, for example, of a JustGiving board got people’s hackles up - but again, that’s quite a different thing from actual fraud of which we have zero evidence (and once again, please do bear in mind how serious an issue that would be, and that MNers are responsible for their own posts.)

What we really, really don’t want to do is to shut down discussion about the principles of the matter and our policies on this and other things - and when JustineMumsnet gets back from her break we’ll of course be debriefing her on the many points you’ve made (both on current and deleted threads, which we’ve been through with a fine tooth comb).

One thing that we’ve already done is to change our policy on links to crowdfunding/fundraising sites unless they benefit a registered charity - we agree that moving one of the threads in question to the Charities Noticeboard was a miss-step and that definitely won’t happen again.

We’re also looking really hard at what we say on the boards to reassure users who are worried about a potential troll - in retrospect, we shouldn’t have said that we’d gone above and beyond in checking this case out, because that implies that we can definitively validate any identity, and we can’t.

We really do want to hear what you think, and we listen hard to things that are pissing MNers off - recent examples are the changes underway on usernames1234 and the removal of the T-bar ad on mobile. We consistently turn down more ads than we take. We don’t and never ever will take money from tabloids for our content. We still put purpose before profit, and that’s not going to change - it's why a lot of the MN team have chosen to work at MN Towers. We do have to be sustainable - we’d all be out of a job otherwise - but it’s really worth having a look at the other place if you haven’t recently, to see what really chasing commercial gains looks like: it’s intrusive ads and a lot of sleb gossip.

We hope this helps to clarify our position a bit; do please do put your general thoughts here on this thread - we’ll be listening and we’ll try to help clarify anything that we haven’t covered here. Please do take on board what we’ve said about conjecture though - we’ll have to delete speculative posts if we see them here or if they’re reported on other threads.

Thanks

MNHQ

OP posts:
ShatnersWig · 10/08/2017 08:14

I know this happened a while back but I have to agree with other posters and that the response from Kate to Honey was rude, unnecessary and should have resulted in an apology. I see one was not forthcoming. I think that sums up a lot of what's emanating from HQ these days, I'm sorry to say.

Floralnomad · 10/08/2017 08:18

mychild , seriously just move on you are making yourself look ridiculously obsessed now . 'Subliminal messages ' , fgs . If you don't like it here leave , jeez all this episode has proven is that some people don't realise how rudely they come across whilst calling other people rude and some posters think they are more important than they are . If you went into a shop / doctors and spoke to the staff like you've written/ spoken to HQ staff in the last 5/6 days you would have been ejected and banned .

PandorasXbox · 10/08/2017 08:18

I agree but like I said I've seen the vaguest inference of something not being right deleted. I think we should be allowed to air concerns in a way that isn't blatant troll hunting.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 10/08/2017 08:21

As someone else said, staff should probably discuss what was said both in the words and subliminally what was the message you gave out when you posted that comment on the thread.

subliminally Hmm

Lucysky2017 · 10/08/2017 08:24

Reddit is a gerat website for all kinds of things. I am over 50 and like it! So is mumsnet too. Let them all thrive.

Sometimes people do on-line and in real life make things up. I just could not do that which is silly of me as the best way to stay anonymous on line is to make up different family members, gender of children, where you live but it's hard for most people who are pretty honest to do that. Also lies normally get you found out in life. If ever one of my children wants to make something up about being off school - some complex tale of an illness I always refuse. Let us just be brief and say cannot come and give the honest answer. The lies get you into a vast pit of deceit which is never worth it in life.

It is very hard to run moderation on websites and to know to what extent to interfere. MN does a good job but like most sites sometimes mistakes will be made as everyone makes them. Having clear rules that are stuck to is a good idea particularly as sites get bigger as different moderators on websites tend to have different views and as companies get bigger you need more control and script and rules that apply.

SussexMist · 10/08/2017 08:27

Bottom line is many posters were overinvested and frankly were a bit dumb wrt internet safety. The whole "sending you love, crying for you, etc" stuff was just eewww Shock

PandorasXbox · 10/08/2017 08:38

I don't think Kate's response to Honey was rude at all. I felt for Kate last night on this thread if I'm honest.

Butterymuffin · 10/08/2017 08:42

I think the move to only registered charities being allowed is good. Can't realistically see how the non-direct grubbing for money can be eliminated. People need to use their common sense there and (probably) not give money to folk who ask for it on the Internet. MNHQ can't control that.

Sairelou · 10/08/2017 08:45

I think Kate had a tough job yesterday, like I mentioned in a pp, she seemed to have drawn the short straw!

However I do think that she was a bit short with HoneyDragon but I get that it was getting late and we all say things we don't mean when we are getting tired.

PandorasXbox · 10/08/2017 08:46

I agree MNHQ can't control posters giving money to someone begging however innocent it might appear but they can remove any posts that might be intimating they are.

Butterymuffin · 10/08/2017 08:54

They already do the warning post though Pandora. I'm not sure they can chase down every instance of someone hinting that just a tenner would do them till payday. It is commonly said that posters here are adults, shouldn't be treated like children etc. So that ought to be the case with making judgements about giving people money too. In this instance I can see why people felt there was some sense of 'endorsement' from MNHQ but in general it should be something posters take responsibility for.

0nline · 10/08/2017 08:59

On the policy change thread I made four suggestions here from my perspective as an off-line relative of a deceased person under discussion on a site/forum.

2 and 3 are covered by this thread with similar changes proposed by MNHQ. In terms of 4 ... I think that will happen organically as a hang over from recent events.

Leaving 1, which may have been covered and I missed the reference, but on the off chance it hasn't...

-

1- Delete all and any mention of real life identifying information relating to the identity of the deceased and those who would by extension lead to their identification.

What you don't ever see, because it is essentially google-proof thanks to lack of identifying features, can't eviscerate you. What wings it's way to you because an online identity has been linked to a real life one can feel like being pierced with red hot pokers of shame, anger and shock.

--

While there was deletion of identifying information (names/location) that originally emanated from the one person entitled to post that information, it didn't occur pre kerfuffle. Which in certain circumstances, as we have seen, can lead to the info leaking beyond the confines of the original platform. Increasing the chances of Google Shock & Awe for relatives later on down the line. What is written elsewhere is not MNHQ's responsibility, however very early deletion of identifying details can be seen as an opportunity to protect the people who played no part in the online element, but are likely to be the most long term hurt from it.

Apologies if this has already been addressed and I missed it.

I know the aftermath has been upsetting, potentially painful and anger inducing for members (from all sides of the fence) and admin alike. But all I can say is, I wish when it was me at the sharp end (as the RL relative of a discussed, deceased person) it had been on here, rather than the platforms where it actually occurred.

I've had communications with MNHQ over the years, when I was in many magnitudes of less distress, and they have been unfailing kind and compassionate. They have also, considering they are a large organisation, moved incredibly swiftly to take on board criticism and make plans to implement adjustments of policy. That is in very, very sharp contrast with the experience I had when trying to persuade sites to consider filling similar policy holes elsewhere. Which is a biggie. The ramifications can be hard to predict.

God knows I would never have been able to forecast what happened, nor my subsequent reactions and actions. Nothing has changed on the sites where my father's death was a topic. Nothing has been deleted. Identifying information naming him, and connecting his real name to his nickname remains. Leaving years of posts for me to read, with his voice in my head, making in-going denial both incredibly seductive and ... easy.

I don't believe MNHQ would have left me stuck like this. I do believe they operate from a higher level of humanity than your average site, based on the notable difference in how they have communicated with me in the past, and the communications I received from other sites when in significant distress. While no organisation can, or should expect a criticism free relationship with their users, I think they deserve more credit than perhaps high emotions are permitting at present.

By the same token, IMO posters on all sides of the fence have by and large acted in good, albeit noisy, faith. I'm biased. I'd take the noise over the largely kind, but very rabbit-in-the-headlights, lets-not-mention-the-massive-elephant, quick-where's-the-carpet-sweeper reception I got elsewhere. I know you lot wouldn't have reacted to me like that. I know if another recently bereaved person, reeling from their loved one being a topic here, showed up you would not do the real world equivalent of a cheery hello, quick pat and flurry of excuses why "must dash". It's differences like that, because of the people here, both old timers and shiny fresh, that have made this place so damn addictive in times of need and and times of want for more years than I care to remember.

Speaking of addictive... it's time for me to force an extended time out on myself. After a protracted period of sad, I found myself having fun for the first time in a long time, on here, parodying the Lord's prayer and chortling at all the other posts. Soon after that I feel I got over a hump, and felt happy and plugged back into the world for the first time in a long time. If I want to hold onto that forward movement I think I need to clock off online. Cos while seeing how you lot (posters on all sides of fence and admin) have used something really horrible as a learning curve and chosen to make changes, in very stark contrast with some other sites, has been good... there is a fairly fresh scab I need to stick a plaster over so it doesn't get knocked off.

PandorasXbox · 10/08/2017 08:59

Yes that's true. I don't think it will stop new or the do gooders wanting to help the needy person on the internet though. But I agree that it would be almost impossible for MNHQ to monitor every single begging letter without numerous reports.

poweredbybread · 10/08/2017 09:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SoupDragon · 10/08/2017 09:42

You've just had a look at a closed group that not even subscribers can see, how've you managed that then

It's not closed

Sairelou · 10/08/2017 09:44

It did close for a while overnight but has now reopened with new mods.

poweredbybread · 10/08/2017 09:46

Online👏

PortiaCastis · 10/08/2017 09:50

That group was open last night when I looked at it and I must say I don't think bitching achieves anything at all as we can all bitch and when one is on the recieving end it's nasty and horrible and hurtful so what's the point other than to be known as a bitch.

Ginslinger · 10/08/2017 10:08

At the risk of looking like I'm licking Honeydragon's arse, I really think that the reply to her from Kate wasn't called for and she has been a hugely supportive poster, supportive of other posters and of MN and hyperbole alert MN will be the poorer for her not being here so could this please be acknowledged?

PandorasXbox · 10/08/2017 10:12

What about ALL the shit Kate and other members of HQ have had thrown at them this week? Nobody seems to be pulling up those posters for what's been said.

PandorasXbox · 10/08/2017 10:16

Though also, civility is really important in these conversations we think - MNHQ staff are people doing their jobs after all.

That was a perfectly reasonable response to what Honey said imo and there's no need for anyone to apologise for making it imo.

Fwiw I like Honey too but I think she was a bit rude to Kate.

NellieBuff · 10/08/2017 10:17

PandorasXbox without wishing to start a bun fight. They brought this on themselves (and remember they get paid to do a job). Kate's response to Honeydragon was totally unnecessary and an apology would , I am sure, have been appreciated.

PandorasXbox · 10/08/2017 10:21

That doesn't mean that posters can be rude to them imo. I don't agree with how certain things have been handled this last week either but Kate was just doing her job last night. Plus she's only human too and I guess this whole thing has got to her in some capacity.

SoupDragon · 10/08/2017 10:23

Kate's response to Honeydragon was totally unnecessary and an apology would , I am sure, have been appreciated.

I'm sure Kate would like an apology for the rudeness towards her too. I think her response was fine and warranted.

PassiveAggressiveFloofiness · 10/08/2017 10:39

HoneyDragon
"Oh and for the last time

Why is this still here?"

KateMumset
"Though also, civility is really important in these conversations we think - MNHQ staff are people doing their jobs after all"

Six of one and half a dozen of the other, IMO.

Maybe we need a "peace and love, people". I think people would find "ahem" too rude these days. It's a shame.

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