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This is bullshit. Thread #2

999 replies

BeyondSpecialSnowflake · 26/08/2016 08:48

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
OlennasWimple · 26/08/2016 13:32

The Mercator article is interesting, but - I think - misses one key point. It's not that we are saying that a man cannot become a transwoman, it's that a man cannot become a woman

CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 13:34

Sorry, Elsa, but I don't believe that for a second. All I have seen, read, & heard says that TW would do whatever it takes to never set foot in any TW-designated area. "TW = W" according to TA propaganda after all, and it's "trans-exclusionary" (as in TERF) to say it's not correct.

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 13:35

I think you have a very valid point Elsa and personally it would be great to see trans specific facilities and services. But as women, we do have to push back hard against the encroachment on our rights and the violation of our boundaries, otherwise it will be seen as more convenient to force us to share. I also think it's not really for feminism to deliver these facilities.

I am sympathetic, but I'm more concerned with women's rights. Just like many of the ordinary trans people we keep hearing about are more concerned with "getting on with their lives" and seemingly not that bothered about women being thrown under the bus.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 13:36

And I'm actually rather uncomfortable with some of the more Right On women on the community group who are saying they expect us to be an experiment for the local transwomen.

I fuklly acceot their right to dress safely, and frankly, the male bathroom here probably is not. But the transwomen (I feel far too paranoid to say 'these' after The Thread but I do mean these - NATWALT) Also turned down the the family change room as it was offensive to 'even suggest.'

Also, can people please not compare bisexual/lesbian women in safe spaces as transwomen? You can't look at a woman and say 'oh she's gay, I doubt anything bad will ever happen to her'

We need safe spaces too. It's not the same.

Soubriquet · 26/08/2016 13:37

Our swimming pool has individual cubicles to get changed in as well as benches in public

I choose to change in public because there is a bit with a plastic pen and a plastic changer to allow me to change the baby easily.

However if there was a tw in there making me uncomfortable, I would have to change in a cubicle

travellingbird · 26/08/2016 13:37

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

WOMEN HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS.

What next, women?

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 26/08/2016 13:39

The problem is that because most trans people don't wish to draw attention to themselves they aren't vocal.

Transactivists are very vocal.

People assume ta views are those of all trans people.

Trans people are then hated and campaigned against, which makes them even more determined to stay quiet.

That, in turn, makes the activists voices even louder.... and so it continues.

It's an awful situation and detrimental to everyone.

WatchMeSoar · 26/08/2016 13:41

What do we do next?

BurstBees · 26/08/2016 13:42

OK, we'll change in the toilets. Will we dare complain that we have been pushed out of a space that's supposed to be safe for women to undress?
Never mind, we're used to hanging out in toilet cubicles. It's where some of us have fed our babies, desperately trying to not offend.

TriniRedVelvet · 26/08/2016 13:43

Well I've not been banned yet so here I am. I would like to encourage anyone who wishes to do so to add their support on OscarDeLaYenta's I Am Spartacus thread here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 13:44

It's an awful situation and detrimental to everyone.

I agree. There isn't anything women can do about this. I do try to keep in mind that it's a vocal minority but with the media colluding sometimes that is hard. And we absolutely can't stop pushing back. Not for a second.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 26/08/2016 13:44

Sorry, Elsa, but I don't believe that for a second. All I have seen, read, & heard says that TW would do whatever it takes to never set foot in any TW-designated area. "TW = W" according to TA propaganda after all, and it's "trans-exclusionary" (as in TERF) to say it's not correct.

There is nowhere for trans people to safely go though.

I certainly know of trans people/people with gender issues who have asked for a space and have been told to use the facilities for the gender they identify with, they have refused and been excluded from various things because they do not wish to invade spaces and make people feel uncomfortable. They do not take this to the press or make a fuss because they don't want the attention.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 26/08/2016 13:49

I'm all for providing facilities and a third option too.

But it is necessary to realise that for some TA ways of thinking, this will not be an acceptable solution as this does not validate that they are women.

It's the difference between ensuring safety, dignity and a comfortable experience for all, and completely erasing all boundaries for women's spaces. Plus, unfortunately, being expected to have no feelings or concerns about this as it's exclusionary and phobic.

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 13:50

That's awful Elsa. I think it is because as I said it's just easier and cheaper and more convenient to force the other gender to share.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 13:51

I wrote a long, ranty post but it was too identifying. Basically, long story short -transwomen are complaining on our community FB group that almost all women are leaving the change rooms when they come in, or showing up in bathers. This is transphobic. They seem intelligent enough to know referencing the DC would lose them all sympathy, so it's worded along the lines of - we don't want transwomen in pools with our children. Which is just ridiculous.

I want to believe NATWALT, but in my heart of hearts, I just don't. Sad The scary ones are the majority, I cannot ignore the facts. I absolutely believe there are unscary trans, but I cannot base my own and my children's protection on the assumption that most are any longer. ll evidence suggests that the majority are really scary. Being bisexual has shown me things that I'm not sure I would have believed happened if they hadn't happened to me and my friends.

Time to protect my family and myself. Hurt feelings no longer matter to me. At all. Been pushed too hard for too many years. I'm done

shins · 26/08/2016 13:52

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/26/women-walk-alone-blank-noise-india-reclaim-streets-fear-harrassment

If you scroll down below this article you'll see that their series covers "issues affecting women, girls and transgender people". Budge up ladies and make room.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 13:57

There is nowhere for trans people to safely go though.

Not true. The transwomen at our local pool were offered unfettered, first priority access to the family changerooms. No.
Okay, disabled changeroom? No.
Disabled bathroom? No.

That's three options, the first two frankly much nicer that the womens! I live in a poor area with lots of Muslim women. This is causing a lot of grief. As I said, I assumed it was rumour until last night, thank goodness I hadn't enrolled DC is swimming for this year for various reasons.

I'm sure your loved one (I assume from your posts you have a loved one, and BTW you sound so lovely that I feel bitchy - whoever described you as classy was spot on!) would never do this. But claiming there's no safe spaces offered to transwomen isn't true. Like I said,poor, deeply religious women. Many have just stopped going. there have actually been zero -at least, public- complaints, which is why I thought it was a rumour. Just quiet acceptance and changing their circumstances.

The local transwomen are complaining about our choices though. Is that fair?

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 26/08/2016 13:58

I think it is because as I said it's just easier and cheaper and more convenient to force the other gender to share

This is it, there aren't enough voices for a third space. TAs shouting that they want to use women's facilities, women telling them to use the men's facilities, meanwhile a perfectly valid option of a third space isn't really being discussed.

But it is necessary to realise that for some TA ways of thinking, this will not be an acceptable solution as this does not validate that they are women.

I strongly believe that if there was a third option TA views on this would not even be considered with any degree of seriousness.

I also believe that if the very vocal and offensive TAs weren't shouting about this issue it would be another. I think it's more about the type of people they are than fighting for a particular cause tbh.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 13:59

A trans loved one, I'm sure you have many loved ones!! Blush

Goodness, I'm off MN for one day and my posting skills go out the window Grin

ScrambledSmegs · 26/08/2016 14:02

Oh god no, I'd never go back and change pronouns willy-nilly on my friends or people I meet. I'd prefer to be respectful. However the essay made me question my unthinking acceptance of whatever pronouns people want. That's all.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 14:02

I also believe that if the very vocal and offensive TAs weren't shouting about this issue it would be another. I think it's more about the type of people they are than fighting for a particular cause tbh.

Agreed. The transwomen I'm talking about scare me. Not because they're trans, because I'm not actually sure what they want. I have ingrained behaviour to protect myself from men. I have no idea what to say and do to protect myself from these particular transwomen, and getting naked in front of them isn't something I'm willing to do. Even if I did, again, I don't know wat they want. they have a safe space to change, no one has complained about them, but they're just so angry it's hard not to be afraid, y'know?

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 14:03

I also believe that if the very vocal and offensive TAs weren't shouting about this issue it would be another. I think it's more about the type of people they are than fighting for a particular cause tbh.

I totally agree with this. Even when they are conceded to, they just want to take more and more because they're channelling all this emotional activity into fighting for this cause. They will never ever be satisfied. I do believe a lot of them really hate women though.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 26/08/2016 14:06

Thank you special I don't think you're being bitchy at all, we have differing views and thats OK.

The local transwomen are complaining about our choices though. Is that fair?

No it isn't, and I'll be honest that's not my experience at all.

Maybe I have a rose tinted view, maybe I move in circles with like minded individuals and assume that the majority of people I talk to do represent the majority view.

I am struggling to find a common ground between my feminist values and supporting the community that I am now a part of also (not me personally, you're right it is someone I love).

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 26/08/2016 14:07

Welcome back SpecialAgent and thank you for your openness and bravery.

I am reflecting on 35+ years of being a feminist. I fought for the right to be whatever I wanted as a woman - not just girly, pink, submissive and feminine. I am lucky enough to have had a successful career, a loving husband and great kids who all love and accept me as Working, a woman, with a mix of attributes that you could typify as being both male and female if you were applying gender constructs to me. We fought for that and to allow women to be whatever they want, not forced into stereotyped boxes determined for them by men.

And my discomfort has been rising for some years and I didn't know why. I am grateful to all those on Mumsnet who have helped me through intelligent discussion and debate from both sides, helping me to unpick my feelings. So I now know my discomfort with Caitlin Jenner is partly because she (and i use her preferred pronoun consciously and with respect, but do not believe she is a woman as after all she has a cock and balls and continues to benefit from her male privilege) represents a stereotyped view of what it means to be a woman (all about looks and clothes) and therefore she should not be held up to be a female role model. I want her to find peace and happiness, dressing and behaving however she likes. But the Today Programme making her one of their Women of the Year was deeply wrong, and had the effect of displacing another biological woman from that list, who would probably have achieved despite oppression and would hence have been far worthier and a better role model.

And at the same time, we have the pornification of our culture and the role models for young girls are women who look indistinguishable from the porn stars of my youth (Kim Kardashian anyone) and in fact release sex tapes aka porn to boost their profiles. Again, women are being told this is what they should aspire to. Who created this I wonder? Who benefits?

I worry for my DD and for other young girls when these images surround them and seem to dominate modern culture. They are being told they have to become a stereotyped 'woman' in the image of what men desire, or else they must be transmen. Women are no longer being allowed to be a wide range of personalities and types. And men like Bruce Jenner was, are trying to establish their definition of what being a woman means as the primary one which we must all accept. After 35 years of self-determination, men are rising up against us and trying to impose their definitions and rules on us once again. The media, health services and policy makers all seem to have kowtowed to this and to TRAs in an attempt to seem right on and not be attacked or silenced. I know I have avoided saying anything publicly until now as I didn't want the attacks I know come with saying anything which others can choose to deem 'transphobic'.

When they no-platformed Germaine Greer, I felt that it was wrong but didn't know why and worried I was being politically incorrect to feel that way. Now I know why it is right to feel that way, and focus on Burke's comment 'All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.' We have to start standing up for ourselves, and MNHQ, as a platform for millions of women, you can no longer play scared and try to keep everyone happy.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/08/2016 14:10

Trans people are then hated and campaigned against, which makes them even more determined to stay quiet

I don't think anyone in Mumsnet hates or campaigns against transfolk, they (MNers) just want sex segregated spaces to stay sex segregated and not have to pretend that a person can literally change their sex. Everyone (I think) would be happy for safe spaces for MTT and FTT - the issue is that it would seem in many cases this is not acceptable as it is deemed transphobia to point out that e.g. a MTT isn't actually female and therefore shouldn't be in females spaces.