This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

Ego, so are you basically happy with the attitudes expressed here or are they problematic for you? If so, shy?

I should add to the above though that I do not believe trans is all about 'passing' at all. But it is (to me) a large part of it, otherwise it kinda makes no sense at all. You wish to be known as a woman, while still being for all intents and purposes a man.

Obviously why not shy.

rans women or trans men would actually make an effort to 'pass' as the sex they wish to be/are

And 'passing' can involve gender stereotypes IYSWIM.

There are some GICs that have occupational therapists to help you 'pass'. Now that's interesting.

Personally I want to blend in. That's all. Not be noticed. I am 'lucky' I think that I can do that reasonably well and I don't get the looks and glances I used to.

I know some trans people struggle with that.

Whereas to a trans woman, its not about 'wanting to be known as a woman' but actually 'being' a woman and as such, you do all possible to be a woman. Not just demand the title.

Should have thought this out before posting snippets...

so are you basically happy with the attitudes expressed here or are they problematic for you

There are things I agree with and some I don't. But this is a reasonably civilised conversation at the moment so I'm trying to keep it that way.

Personally I want to blend in. That's all. Not be noticed. I am 'lucky' I think that I can do that reasonably well and I don't get the looks and glances I used to.

Me too. Passing is important so that you can just get on with your life without getting shit and getting stared at all the time. That is so emotionally draining.

And 'passing' can involve gender stereotypes IYSWIM.

Yup, I understand this. Its all just a massive ball of fuckup to me. The whole gender stereotypes thing. You HAVE to conform to stereotypes in a way as otherwise you won't 'pass' which in turn breeds more hatred. Wow.

Someone mentioned earlier about a kind of social contract of trans individuals trying to pass, and in turn non trans people generally being fairly accepting and I think there is an element of truth to that. Of course there is more to it than passing - and sadly there are many transwomen who won't every truly pass because of their build, facial features, mannerisms, etc - but so many of current loud and shouty brigade don't seem to be remotely trying. If you are so sure you are a woman, then why are you cultivating a beard, moustache, and wearing not even androgynous but downright stereotypically male clothing.

I'm glad you felt able to come back to the thread, Ego.

But what is passing?

I sometimes fail to pass as female (and I am female). Does a TW have to wear a dress and lippy to pass, or will jeans, T-shirt and breasts do?

I guess it all comes back to the oft asked question what makes a woman...

You HAVE to conform to stereotypes in a way as otherwise you won't 'pass' which in turn breeds more hatred

Catch 22.

And I will admit to looking at other transwomen and thinking WTF do you look like. Why are you 'acting' like that? Because it can be an act.

Then I think what do I look like, what do people see and what do people think? So I get all self conscious about my appearance, judge myself etc.

(which probably sounds familiar to many people)

Just dropping in to say- I've read both of these threads. They've really made me think. It's taken me hours to work through them

Yesterday, I would've described myself as a passionate liberable feminist and trans ally. I'm not sure where I stand now. I'm certainly not a radical feminist. But I am alarmed about the way things seem to be going, and what this might mean for women (and the focus of feminism as a whole).

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here- I think I need to digest everything. Thank you all for raising these issues. I'm awaiting Mumsnet's response with interest.

And 'passing' can involve gender stereotypes IYSWIM.

This is where Alex Drummond is coming from. Alex is trying to challenge these assertions that women, including transwomen, must adhere to gemder stereotypes in order to be considered women. Alex does this by maintaing a full beard in order to "queer gender" and "expand the bandwidth of what it is to be a woman".

I kind of get this and in some ways I can see that it could be viewed as a noble intention, but I have to be honest (and sorry Ego if you disagree) I'd rather that Alex queers gender by "expanding the bandwidth of what it is to be a man".

Does that make sense? How else could we look at this?

Someone mentioned earlier about a kind of social contract of trans individuals trying to pass, and in turn non trans people generally being fairly accepting and I think there is an element of truth to that.

This^ I think most people don't have a problem with "real" transwomen, the sort who would be eligible for a GRC. This whole thread and the Spartacus thread are driven by a backlash against "transwomen" who seem to make no effort other than demanding they are treated as women.

Helen I totally agree with you on Alex Drummond.

Does a TW have to wear a dress and lippy to pass, or will jeans, T-shirt and breasts do

Some do. Today I've worn jeans and a t-shirt. But I don't have facial hair, I have 'longish' coloured hair and breasts. I am slim and have some curves. And make up - not today.

I was in a house share and told them I was a transwoman. Apparently I was not what they were expecting.

But...when I am on these threads, it does make me want to blend in even more.

I'm not sure myself ItsAllGoing. I suppose I can only look at it in reverse. I'm a pretty feminine (style wise) woman - long hair, dresses, make up, jewellery, bla bla bla.

If I suddenly said "I'm actually a man" but changed nothing about my appearance at all and rocked up to use men's changing rooms there'd understandably be some very raised eyebrows. I think the issue is not so much around androgynous styling, but individuals like Danielle Muscato who have a beard, manly short hair (woman's short hair is generally different in cut and style), and wears a suit and tie. That's not only not conforming to the female gender stereotype but conforming pretty strongly to the male.

Its so hard. Personally when it comes to women's spaces I couldn't give a fuck about passing. Because that's not fair on trans women who can't pass. I also don't think SRS/lack of it should be a line. Its not acceptable to pressure people to have life altering surgery they may not want to "prove they are trans enough". I'm so cross about the whole TRA narrative which is forcing women and trans women to stand apart. I'm 100% sure I would have no issue sharing a space with any of the trans women posting here. Because you are all sensitive to women's POV. But the new gender self certification rules and "anyone who feels a woman is a woman" makes me feel I have to take a position. I'm sure there are sex offenders out there who will abuse self certification. People like Ada don't help reassure me at all.
I wish I could see a way to support the people with genuine dysphoria and also minimise the risks to women.
Thank you for sharing ego, Miranda and Helen.

Some do. Today I've worn jeans and a t-shirt. But I don't have facial hair, I have 'longish' coloured hair and breasts. I am slim and have some curves. And make up - not today

I was kind of meaning more want do you need to wear to be acceptable as a TW to the NHS. Both the TW I know live in jeans and t-shirts too

Oh x posted with loads of people sorry

So I guess maybe a TWs body is more important than the way they dress? Dysphoria isn't about dresses after all...?

I was kind of meaning more want do you need to wear to be acceptable as a TW to the NHS. Both the TW I know live in jeans and t-shirts too

I have turned up to appointments in a range of clothes. Normally I'm off to work and a dress is very impractical for my job. So it's trousers and a top.

I wish I could see a way to support the people with genuine dysphoria and also minimise the risks to women.

This. I have no problem with you three, the transwoman friend I've had for years is bloody lovely. The problem is with the activists and the abusers who want to trample all over women, and then all the reasonable transwomen end up caught in the crossfire.

Helen, I understand why you don't want to be called a man. Is being called a transwoman preferable?

when I am on these threads, it does make me want to blend in even more.

I totally understand. It is emotionally draining being in these conversations. (This isn't so bad - Twitter is an absolute cess pit and I had to give it up). And it also places a huge burden of expectation on things. I'm now hyper aware of what women may be thinking about me. About what they think I'm probably like because of the way a lot of trans people on the internet behave.

Again this sounds a bit #notallmen.

My point is that I try to stand up against people like that. Miranda does so much more than anyone else I've ever seen. It's not OK for TA's to behave they way they do and it's a real issue that hurts women and "real" transwomen too. Of course they would claim to be "real" women transwomen too.