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This is bullshit. Thread #2

999 replies

BeyondSpecialSnowflake · 26/08/2016 08:48

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
AltheaThoon · 26/08/2016 11:24

Have no journos / Matthew Wright picked up on these issues yet? All the banal threads they choose to make an article of - how to balance your mantlepiece and threads about sex - but this, a real issue that affects women, doesn't go anywhere.

Mind you, if they did pick it up they'd probably come at it from completely the wrong angle and try to make us look like transphobes anyway.

Marking my place in support.

CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 11:26

Welcome back, Special Smile

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 11:27

Good lord excuse all those typos!

StillStayingClassySanDiego · 26/08/2016 11:27

Welcome back Special , good to see you.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 11:28

Flowers To all of you who stood up for me. MNHQ really backed off.

AltheaThoon · 26/08/2016 11:29

Welcome back special.

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 26/08/2016 11:32

Welcome back special. I have pmed you Flowers

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 11:41

[flowers\

i really do feel for MNHQ. They are in a very tough spot.

However, tat does not excuse insulting someone's sexuality. However cluelessly.

I had a right not to be pushed into a transgender relationship when I was younger. i didn't post much about this, because it's so upsetting and it was only men and idiot andmidens who did, not transwomen. But it was biphobic and I want to prevent this from getting even worse for young non straight girls.

Cotto ceiling = Peak trans moment.

PolterGoose · 26/08/2016 11:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RainbowSnowflake · 26/08/2016 12:00

glad you're back Special, now to get Posie reinstated!

OfCrayonBorn · 26/08/2016 12:06

Welcome back Special Flowers

PageStillNotFound404 · 26/08/2016 12:11

At least we've tried, there are a lot of posters on spartacus who I don't recognise and have never noticed commenting on trans threads.

I've never posted on trans threads before this week despite self-expressing as a feminist for pretty much all of my life. I've been ignorant of the underlying - and quite frankly terrifying - misogyny of the few but loudspoken TRAs driving the more political elements of the trans agenda and the impact that is having on women. I even naively used "cis" about myself on one of my earlier posts yesterday, not realising it is used as an insult and a way of making being a biological woman a subset of what some men think womanhood should be. I won't be making that mistake again!

I'm educating myself at a rate of knots, thanks to some of the brilliant, articulate women on these threads. I now know that some of my long-standing views about the artificial genderisation of so many aspects of society make me a gender critical feminist. But there is still much for me to learn.

I have sympathy and compassion for true transwomen and transmen who are suffering violence and transphobia. I will support to the death their right to fight back against that and to be accepted as whoever they are, and will be their ally in that fight. But not at the expense of throwing women under the bus in their place. And I will not, cannot ever accept that a man can put on a dress and call himself Mary and hey presto, he's a woman.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 12:12

Oh, and the fact I dress feminine rockabilly does not give you the right to assure me 'I'm a femme' who instead of my masculine long term partner at the time (we lived together FFS) I was 'selfish' because 'I'd be PERFECT for a transwoman so I should really not date lesbians'

This was a mythical fucking transwoman, btw!! Saying stuff is 'transphobic' gives misogynists and homophobics a very scary stick to beat lesbians and bisexuals with. I'm very cncerned if MNHQ do not take this into action - How long before the homophobia starts here, under the guise of 'trans tolerance?'

Btw i am not femme and no one has the right to identify me because of what i wear! When I was a teen, I cn so easily have seen myself genuinely believing I was a boy and mutilating my body.

We must protect non straight young girls from the inevitable.

I wasn't going to post how often I got these sorts of comments, because they never came from an actual transwoman. But I do think it's essential MNHQ see the position this puts us (non straights) in.

Posted this on wrong thread >mortified< Evidence of laydeebrain? Grin

jellycat1 · 26/08/2016 12:15

Welcome back special! Glad you decided to return to us. Looking out for posie now. Glad to have found this thread as I was 1001st poster on the old one and thought I'd ninjad it! That would have been some ninja-ing though Grin

CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 12:17

What on God's green Earth is "femme"? Confused

I'm guessing that you are not talking about the French word for "woman".

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 26/08/2016 12:17

Welcome back, Special!

CakeWineFlowers

OlennasWimple · 26/08/2016 12:17

Glad to see you are back Special

I've just spent some time on the Reddit thread and it's so depressing - I really hope that MN doesn't become a place where it's OK to carp about individual posters. Sad

Soubriquet · 26/08/2016 12:18

Femme is a "feminine" lesbian. Also known as a lipstick lesbian.

They dress like "normal" girls

The opposite are butch. They dress like "men"

Bambambini · 26/08/2016 12:19

And about it just being loos, what's the big deal. I'm in a loo in the US and this their idea of privacy. I can see the whole body of someome outside washing their hands. If they choise to look, they could see me. What's with the huge bloody gaps, the gap from floor to stall you coild limbo under and short stall walls a tall person could probsbly see over. I niw wave to the folk outside when i sit down for a wee.

This is bullshit. Thread #2
CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 12:19

If MNHQ continues to ignore the "I Am Spartacus" thread, maybe we should start another one called "I am a TERF".

... although I'm not really one because Rad Fem don't want me because of my liberal views on stuff like prostitution Grin

IndominusRex · 26/08/2016 12:20

For people with genuine body dysmorphia it must be terrible. I can certainly relate to feeling trapped by my body and brain. And I think that good mental health care is imperative.
But I'm yet to see a definition of gender that isn't just clothes and likes or dislikes.
I fully 100% wholeheartedly would love to see a society where none of that matters and everyone can wear what they like, look how they like and have whatever interests they like without having to conform to narrow standards and stereotypes.
But I equally 100% wholeheartedly defend women's rights to sex segregated spaces and language.
Those two statements are not in any way contradictory.

Soubriquet · 26/08/2016 12:20

Woah Bamba that's not really giving you privacy is it?

ReActiv · 26/08/2016 12:24

I'm very confused about the entire thing. I'm afraid I can't put my opinion across as eloquently as previous posters.

Okay, i believe gender is a social construct. It is determined by an individual's environment and 'rules' of the community they live in. It is an old fashioned (might be considered 'traditional') concept with the majority of people conforming to its stereotypes.

There is no denying that we live in a society where males will be considered 'atypical' if they wear clothes designed for women, heavy makeup, manicured/painted nails, adapt their voice to speak at a higher pitch etc.

This is because it is traditionally women who wear makeup, dresses, and have higher pitched and softer voices.

So a man who wants to do and wear traditionally 'female' things in our society, while being legally protected against discrimination and hate crime, will say they are female.

If, however, we actually lived in a parallel society where gender stereotypes were completely reversed (so it was traditional for men to stay at home and bring up the children, wear dresses/skirts, wear makeup, have softer voices etc) would the man i have just described above still feel like a woman?

I hope I've posed that question in a clear way. basically, my point is, we live in a world that categorises people into genders. It is most definitely a social construct, however it does exist. We may chose to conform or not conform. From personal/anecdotal experience, females who don't conform to gender stereotypes are more readily accepted than males who don't conform to gender stereotypes.

Girls can play with any toy they like, likes any colours, read any book, wear any design of clothing with not a lot of fuss or controversy. They may be called a 'tomboy'.

Women can shave their heads, not wear makeup, wear any type of clothes they like, watch any type of film etc etc etc.

But if boys do the same, (e.g. wear a Dora the Explorer dress, play with a Barbie dollhouse, read Rainbow Magic books) there are whisperings and assumptions made about them that are not applied to girls. There is no equivalent term to 'tomboy' for boys who prefer things traditionally used by girls. So i have heard people call these boys (children!) effeminate.

If men walk down the street in a dress and makeup, try to join a book club to discuss the latest 'chic lit', cry in the cinema at Titanic etc they are considered by our society to be effeminate (or creeps, or perverts in some instance that I've witnessed).

So I therefore completely understand why some men - who are not permitted by our society the same degree of gender fluidity as women are - feel the need to declare themselves transgender/female. This is the safest way for them to be true to themselves in such a harsh and judgemental world.

There is no legal protection for 'effeminate men'. There is, however, for transgender people.

In an ideal world, i would want gender neutrality. But we do not live in such an ideal world. The world wants to put us in little boxes. Until the majority of people - and not the minority - across the entire world stop conforming, then gender will always exist. It is unfair to ask 'transgender' people to fight that fight in their communities. It is unfair to ask them to remain committed to their sex when society will not allow them to enjoy their true personalities without vindication. If the only way these men can safely portray their true personalities is by stating they are in fact female, then I can't blame them.

What I do disagree with, however, is men and women (in terms of sex here, not gender) sharing private and/or enclosed places without adequate security/supervision (I'd be happy for both sexes to share a bathroom if there were plenty of private cubicles and a security guard by the entrance), same with refuges if there was enough security in place.

I also disagree that it is sexist or exclusionary to use words like vulva or vagina (we use the words arm and leg, don't we?)

I disagree that in literature and reports, transwomen (male sex) are just referred to as 'women' and not differentiated. I worry what this will mean in terms of misinterpretation. E.g. perhaps in the future, statitics will change to show that more women are domestically abusing their spouses, when in fact this increase is down to transwomen and not women (female sex).

I disagree that transwomen should compete in women's sports due to their biological advantage.

Basically, i could go on all day.

To summarise my waffle:

I understand why people declare themselves transgender.

I believe there is a need to distinguish between transwomen and women (female sex).

witchmountain · 26/08/2016 12:24

Think this belonged here rather than the Spartacus thread, thanks for the pointer.

Also want to support and suggest that MNHQ read the Guy Called Helen post.

'Woman', 'female' and 'she/her' all refer to people who were born female. 'Man', 'male' and 'him/his' all refer to people who were born male.

Yes, language moves on and develops spontaneously but that is not the same as deliberately imposing and policing changes to language which deny reality and eliminate the ability to describe it.

People don't feel male or female, they just are. People might feel masculine or feminine. Personally I can't find any use for those words for myself because I think the construct of gender is bullshit, but if you believe there are two genders with specific characteristics then you can go ahead and use masculine and feminine to describe yourself. Describe yourself as gender non-conforming if you like. I can see how you might find that helpful in a world where the construct of gender exists in some people's minds. Personally I think it risks further entrenching the idea of gender rather than challenging it, but I don't need everyone to agree with me on that point. However you describe yourself, as far as I'm concerned we're humans with a range of human characteristics.

You can call me a cis woman if you want, but it doesn't make any sense because you have no idea whether I identify as a gender at all.

If you prefer to present yourself as the opposite sex in terms of appearance (dress, hair, makeup) with or without hormones or surgery, then I absolutely support you in doing so and empathise with finding your body difficult to accept, but that doesn't mean you have become a man or a woman. You are a man presenting as a woman or vice versa, or a transman or transwoman. I don't think for a second that a transwoman is any less than me but the transwoman is not a woman.

The link to the equalities legislation was really helpful (and eye opening!). The example they give (a transwoman being served in the pub and being repeatedly called sir and him, despite complaining) describes a situation where there would have been no need to use any pronouns at all, so deliberately choosing to do so and using male ones, even after a complaint, probably would be an act of aggression and harassment and it's quite right that people should be legally protected from that (and from not being served etc). However, if you are discussing a third party, the use of third person pronouns is unavoidable without using vey clunky sentences. The law as described seems to apply to organisations and businesses who might employ a trans person or from which the trans person might receive a service. It isn't clear that it applies in the context of individuals having a public discussion.

Even if the law did apply in that context, it could still be a reasonable response to challenge the law by protesting against it. Pretty sure that's how we got the vote. Sometimes protest means ignoring a law - Rosa Parks for example.

Some people will prefer to use she to refer to some or all transwomen. Maybe they will make a distinction based on the degree of transition and maybe they won't. Some people will prefer to use he, as this matches the sex of the person being discussed. I think that's fine, even if the person is offended. I would also absolutely defend the right of others to offend me. It can't come down to what offends people because that is so subjective.

With regard to trying to use they/their in sentences where it just sounds awful, we actually do have a singular neuter third person pronoun - 'it'. We use it quite comfortably to refer to unborn babies when we don't know the sex. To use it for person when the sex is known would be seen as contemptuous but that doesn't have to remain the case - language could evolve to make the usage acceptable.

MoreCoffeeNow · 26/08/2016 12:25

Welcome back, Special.