This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I sometimes fail to pass as female (and I am female). Does a TW have to wear a dress and lippy to pass, or will jeans, T-shirt and breasts do?
Hmm this is a good point also. I would have said the second BUT there are women who have had mastectomies so dont have breasts at all, or women who have not noticeable breasts and you still 'know' they are women. We also have the 'butch' lesbians who do often (sorry if this offends) look like men despite being women.

I think there is more pressure on trans women to conform to gender stereotypes, yet them doing so in an OTT way makes them look like nothing more than..crossdressers, in some cases.

Again, big ball of fuckup with no obvious answer.

Generally, I can tell peoples sex by how they look. Not how they dress. Men will have facial hair and a prominent jawline, and women typically have softer features and a hairless face. There are exceptions to this of course, but this is typical. As I understand it, female hormones given during transition, usually give someone more 'feminine' facial features along with a softer voice and such. Male hormones will lead to a typical sharpening of the features and a deeper voice... I may be wrong on that though. Not entirely sure where I am going with this, just writing down as it comes into my head tbh.

'Passing' to me wouldn't mean wearing dresses and such, but just...'looking' feminine. But then were are back, yet again, to what is feminine :S

'butch' lesbians should be 'butch' women. It is not confined solely to lesbianism

So I guess maybe a TWs body is more important than the way they dress

TBH - I think it's more complex than that. And 'not being seen as male' by society is a massive thing for me. But that's the body again - and that's why I had a lot of electrolysis to get the face clear of hair, the HRT for the body and the fact that people can see I have breasts.

It's very complex - and I will be honest and say I couldn't ever wear anything that would make someone think I was male.

Which probably opens up a whole new debate.

I think what I meant, and what the previous poster meant, was that there is something about at least trying to pass IYSWIM? I'm not saying it's right, or the answer, but I think whilst most people might still clock a TW who comes in to a ladies loo dressed in female clothing (even if it's just jeans and a T shirt, the cut etc is different) they would feel substantially less threatened than by a bloke with a beard. Many (most?) people who say they have no issues with TW in woman's spaces are, IMO, thinking of the first group rather than the second.

As I understand it, female hormones given during transition, usually give someone more 'feminine' facial features along with a softer voice and such

Not the voice. I wish it did.

Back to a question asked a few posts back about why gender dysphoria is not treated as a mental health issue (sorry, not sure how to phrase that), I assume it's down to how homosexuality was regarded in the past, and trying to not make the same mistakes. Understandable but misguided I think, given the high instance of ASD in those suffering from gender dysphoria, and the high rates of other psychological conditions being co-morbid (one HCP in this field reported, anonymously of course, that he believed it to be between 60 and 90% of cases having co-morbid psychological issues), which of course go untreated.

That's what I mainly find so distressing with the current TAs narrative. So many vulnerable people, and very young people at that, are surely being failed by this agenda.

At the end of the day, certainly with regard to TWs, this is an issue for manhood to take a good, long, hard look at - why, in the year 2016, is the 'feminine man' ( for want of a better phrase) such a threat. It's disgraceful. And for TMs, why, particularly around puberty, is the adult female body something to be feared and dreaded (porn, I'm taking a very long, hard look at you).

Sorry, that's a bit garbled, been working late and am knackered!

This^ I think most people don't have a problem with "real" transwomen, the sort who would be eligible for a GRC.
I would say this is the general opinion too. Just many have an issue with anyone being able to simply say (and this is where it is all heading right now) I am a woman. And noone can challenge this without being labelled transphobic.

Personally I do not see those who chose to 'live as men' (meaning retaining all 'male' appearance traits and such. And a penis) as trans at all. I think there should be a totally different term for people like that. Making no effort at all to 'live' as the female you claim to be, but expecting the same rights as the female you claim to be...that doesn't wash with me at all.

'Passing' to me wouldn't mean wearing dresses and such, but just...'looking' feminine. But then were are back, yet again, to what is feminine

Indeed

helen and miranda

I give you both credit for taking this on on social media. I have been burnt and avoid it all costs now. Coming back to a lot of abuse (and I have had abuse from all sides on Twitter) is not 'nice'. Full credit to anyone who stands up to be counted.

I also don't think SRS/lack of it should be a line. Its not acceptable to pressure people to have life altering surgery they may not want to "prove they are trans enough"

This is really important.

I'm often told by feminists that having the operation is mutilating my healthy body and I should accept that I'm male and that's OK. And then I see the same women saying that they'd only be OK with people who are post op and it seems to be a contradiction to me. It certainly puts additional pressure on to have the chop.

Not the voice. I wish it did.

Is this solely for trans women? Meaning extra estrogen does not do the same to a transwoman that extra testosterone would do for a transman? I always thought that the deepness of your voice was determined by testosterone levels.

Wow, how do you deal with that, if this isn't too personal? Like, do you feel you have to...put on a voice instead of using your 'real' voice?

Like, do you feel you have to...put on a voice instead of using your 'real' voice

I use my voice. I can't afford speech therapy and the NHS one was at the wrong time. Luckily most people don't care and just accept me, Some people see me, see what I look like but the voice seems to be a real 'cue' to them and they call me 'he'.

Testosterone thickens the voice box for trans men.

RiverTam that's an interesting point

given the high instance of ASD in those suffering from gender dysphoria, and the high rates of other psychological conditions being co-morbid (one HCP in this field reported, anonymously of course, that he believed it to be between 60 and 90% of cases having co-morbid psychological issues), which of course go untreated.

I'm trying to add to this, not take away from it.....

With AD it's about four times higher in the trans community - which means about 8% instead of 2%. So that still leaves the other 92%

The co-morbidities is interesting. Do the mental health issues predate the gender dysphoria, or are they a result of it?

I can only speak for myself, But my only incidence of co-morbid mental health isuues (depression and suicidal ideation) were definitely as a result of my gender dysphoria and the pressures put on me by society and familuy to conform to my man role.

The GIC's are trained to identify co-morbidities and seak treatment for those as well as the dysphoria.

I think that they GIC's have given up on attempting to treat dysphoria with any kind of psychological treatment as history has shown it to be totally unsuccessful. It's not something you can make go away. Transition does seem to be the best treatment. It certainly has been for me.

However, I do think that aspects are lazy and misguided. I teally think that counselling can help massively as part of the process, I also (and not everyone agrees with me) think that explaining gender as a sociual contruct instead of simply reinforcing the "transwomen are women" narrative is healthier for self acceptamce in the long run

This is where Alex Drummond is coming from.

This is probably going to come out garbled, as I'm still working through the thought as I am typing.....

In a sense I agree with Alex Drummond and Danielle Muscato and all the bearers of 'lady penises'. (I have not gone mad - just hear me out!)

If, a transwoman is not and cannot become a woman, no matter what they do to themselves medically or surgically, and no matter how they present themselves in terms of name, dress, gendered behaviour, whether they do make those changes makes no difference to their sex. I argue that Danielle Muscato and Paris Lees are equally not women (and are therefore men) even though the former has not made any changes in outward presentation, whilst the latter has put a great deal of effort into achieving a highly and stereotypically feminised appearance. I consider them the same in that they both belong to the male sex.

So I am coming at it from this end. Alex, Danielle, et al are coming along the same path, but from the opposite direction. If you are a woman by virtue of the fact of having a internal female gender identity, your body is actually immaterial. It is your internal female gender that counts and that defines you. So if you were born into the 'wrong body', your body, whilst it may cause you emotional and psychological distress, is immaterial to you being a woman. Hence, there is no need to alter it in order to be a woman, because according to your definition of womanhood, you already are one. (Although you may choose to alter your body to alleviate any distress you experience.) According to this, Danielle and Paris are the same in that they are both women.

I agree with them that if transwomen are actual real women, then they are too. The point of disagreement is that I know that transwomen are not women. Womanhood resides in and is defined by biology, not an internal gendered identity. For them biology is irrelevant. For me biology is defining.

Ah the voice!

Yep. Testosterone is a one way trip. Giving a female testosterone will mean their voice breaks and they get a male sounding voice.

For a male though, once your voice has broken during puberty there is no undoing it.

It's another difficult area. If i try to change my voice I feel phoney - like I'm tryinbg to perform femininity. If I don't I stand out as a weirdo in society - most of whom have zero understanding of gender as social construct!

teally think that counselling can help massively as part of the process

I will say one thing - considering you've got some clients who have had to wait ages for appointments, can have severe psychological distress, massive issues from life and a lot of 'baggage' - the GIC doesn't really care too much about that and it does not offer any kind of therapy to discuss this stuff.

My experience is that it's very tick box, appointment, tick box, next one - and they don't care about your MH.

For a male though, once your voice has broken during puberty there is no undoing it

Unless you want voice box surgery....

Just to be clear, I hope I didn't across as meaning that Helen. I do understand why you, or any TW, would choose not to have the surgery.

The problem is, as people have highlighted, that trans has become such a ridiculously broad umbrella term that people are struggling to find ways to define, are trying to find their own personal boundaries if that makes sense? I think this is especially true for people who were previously very accepting and so are trying to reconcile old trans sympathies with new found fears and knowledge.

Tam

Being trans is more than being a feminine man. It's also about experiencing the overwhelming feelings of dysphoria that make you feel an unabataing and compelling urge to change your body.

I want to say as well, on the Spartacus thread I've said being female is not a choice. I believe that dysphoric people don't have a choice either. My post is aimed at people who say "identify as a woman". I just find it offensive, like woman-hood is a costume and sexism is something all women could identify out of. "I am a trans woman" is not offensive at all.

It's also about experiencing the overwhelming feelings of dysphoria that make you feel an unabataing and compelling urge to change your body

Yes. That is my understanding. But unfortunately the term has changed / widened now

The problem is, as people have highlighted, that trans has become such a ridiculously broad umbrella term that people are struggling to find ways to define, are trying to find their own personal boundaries if that makes sense? I think this is especially true for people who were previously very accepting and so are trying to reconcile old trans sympathies with new found fears and knowledge.

Yeah totally and this is why we need to be able to have honest, open and nuanced discussion like this. It's healthy for everyone.

It's why I hate the way TRA's are disingenuous and just shut down anyone who doesn't agree with them. It just causes such huge division and is totally counter productive.

That's blokes for you though eh?

Aguycalledhelen but there are many mental illnesses where people have the same types of feelings and they are given help to change those feelings.

Not to redefine society to suit them.

I think "identify as a woman" means to identifty with the socially constructed expecations of what a woman is meant to be.

If we can be honest about that then I don't think anyone would have a problem.