Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

This is bullshit. Thread #2

999 replies

BeyondSpecialSnowflake · 26/08/2016 08:48

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 26/08/2016 14:16

ItsAll Sorry I wasn't clear on that point. I wasn't talking about MNers there. There are groups who do hate and campaign against trans people and I didn't mean to imply that MN was one of them.

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 14:17

It would be nice if the authorities took the view that trans women and men should have their own spaces, and women and men should have their own spaces because everyone has a right to privacy and dignity which includes not having to be in intimate spaces with people of the opposite sex.

But they don't.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/08/2016 14:26

It would be nice if the authorities took the view that trans women and men should have their own spaces, and women and men should have their own spaces because everyone has a right to privacy and dignity which includes not having to be in intimate spaces with people of the opposite sex.

I don't think they actually can. As far as I understand (and I'm very happy to be corrected) in the UK you cannot currently self-defense your gender -> you need to jump through some hoops to gain a GRC. Once you have that GRC you are in the eyes of the law (with a couple of exceptions) of that gender. Therefore effectively in the eyes of the law sex = gender, there is no such thing as a TM or TW, and trying to encourage trans folk to use separate facilities would be discriminatory.

Incidentally, the need to jump through hoops for a GRC is one of the most criticised parts of the gender recognition bill...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/08/2016 14:27

Elsa No worries, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you Smile .

CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 14:45

Well, it seems this Ada person has recently resigned.

Resigned because of shockingly misogynist comments, you might wonder.

No, because of comments about the police.

Memoires · 26/08/2016 14:45

Elsa, I just want to tell you I don't hate. I am angry, and scared - not scared for me, scared for my daughter who is 17 and shouldn't have to worry about ever sharing a women's safe space with someone with a penis.

I am angry that because there are some very vocal people shouting idiotic things very loudly who are being taken seriously, and that leads to a world which is less safe for my daughter than mine was. When I was 17 kerb crawling was made illegal (so often women would take refuge in the public ladies loos), women's refuges barely existed, and when I was 15 women were still being told that wearing a short skirt enticed men to rape them as did walking home alone in the dark; I had thought things were better 17 years ago and my daughter would grow up without the authorities acquiescing or encouraging the vagaries of the Great Penis, but now I am looking at the very real possibility that again there will be no safe spaces for women who have been abused by people with penises. That makes me very sad, very angry and bloody scared for her.

BUT I do not feel hate for the few who have suborned others' real concerns to their own ends taking advantage of well-meant but ill thought out policies, no, not hate. Maybe a little derision towards those actual individuals if I come across them either online or in rl (never have in rl yet), but still, not hate.

Birdandsparrow · 26/08/2016 14:49

Peak trans moment for me has been "lesbian with a penis". Erm, that's a straight MAN. And cotton ceiling, so rapey. Have always considered myself a feminist and had misunderstood transwomen to refer to those undergoing sex change operations and hormone therapy, no idea men could just whack on a dress (leaving their big bushy beard in place) and then claim to be more woman than me. Mind. Blown.

HornyTortoise · 26/08/2016 14:54

For anyone who wants to srgue that this is a one off view, please read this, and the whole site

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

THIS is the abuse lesbians are suffering for refusing to shag a bloke in a wig. There needs to be some form of middle ground. As I delved deeper and deeper into this I felt physically sick at some points, I then discovered that kids as young as 4 are lined up for hormone treatments and such because they liker to wear dresses or play with action men. This is sick and cannot be indulged anymore. I accept that some people have genuine problems and do think they are born int eh wrong body, but we should not be doing this to kids. Psychotherapy should be a first stop anyway rather than hormones as in many cases I do believe 'trans' is a mental illness, or misunderstood sexuality issues, or even having it drummed into you as a kid that playing with dolls means you are a girl. To be actively putting your child through this kind of thing is child abuse. anyone who feels any different on this matter is disgusting, its not even an opinion, it is a fact that this should not be happening to babies.'Gender changing' should not be available or even spoken about for under 18s.

And I will always refuse to refer to a crossdresser ass a transwoman/transman. 'Clothers for women' do not exist except inpeoples minds. If you want to wear a dress, wear a dress. This does not make you a woman nor does it entitle you to have access to woman only safespaces. I cannot believe how misguided I was on this stuff as until yesterday I have been utterly supportive of the trans-movement, I didn't realise how ugly it was behind the glare of the mainstream media though.

BeyondLovesSweetDee · 26/08/2016 15:05

Marking place as I keep losing track!

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 15:06

Even with a GRC there are exemptions. The law could be framed in that way. Discrimination law is about what reasonable steps can be taken. At the moment it's seen as reasonable to force women to share their safe spaces with trans women (men). That doesn't have to be the case and I believe it's more about convenience.

Snowshimmer · 26/08/2016 15:06

Welcome back Special. I don't understand why HQ banned you. Now let's see how they will react to the Spartacus thread - ban hundreds of posters, delete the thread, or rethink their stance...

FoxtonFoxFace · 26/08/2016 15:26

The comments beneath the article that Cote has linked are very interesting.

HornyTortoise · 26/08/2016 15:28

Sorry if my post above seems random. I wrote it in reply to some of the derailers on the spartacus thread then realised that thats exactly what they want, for it to be derailed and deleted. However I couldn't bring myself to throw it away as I have began to feel really strongly about this issue. Also sorry for the typos I should have checked before posting it Blush

BathshuaSpooner · 26/08/2016 15:42

I will not refer to a human with a penis as she. I will not breach MNHQ's guidelines though, I shall instead refer to the poster by name..as in "Jenner chose to wear a chartreuse frock with stiletto heels".

VeniVidiVickiQV · 26/08/2016 15:48

The no-platforming and silencing is the issue for me, more than anything.

All someone has to say is a combination of some or all of (as happened on the Spartacus thread) that something is "vile" "goady" "bigoted" "disgusting" "exclusionary" "violence" "triggering" and BAM! you have a great combination of all the right words to have people do a double take of what has been said. I mean, if someone is saying they are offended/frightened/scared, then, there must be some weight to it, right? This is the tactic that TRAs use OVER and OVER.

Personal attacks have never been okay here. But the definition of what constitutes a personal attack or breaking Talk rules has morphed into something I don't recognise. The whole "waaahhh....someone on the internet has offended me" seems to have grown legs and is running, full force against women's rights.

If MNHQ go down the route of stating that pronouns of choice for TRAs must be used, how far down that route do you actually go? When it comes down to other issues, you absolutely mustn't "genderise", because that too, is offensive. Breastfeeding is now a target (as for "chestfeeding" - men DO actually have breasts FFS - they even get breast cancer - chest cancer is not a thing - lung cancer is, breast cancer is, not chest cancer), women no longer can get pregnant - it's pregnant people.

Gynaecologists....will they now have to become sexocologists? Gendercologists? Because Gynae is a female oriented term. And not all women menstruate. And not all women get cervical cancer. And some 'women' have prostates. And some 'women' have testicles. And so on and so forth. And not all women blah blah blah blah. So, either we go with science, or we don't? You can't pick and choose which bits of science you are going with, and which you are going to blithely ignore for risk of offending someone who may or may not be deluded about what sex they are.

I suppose that makes sex education, which starts at primary school level quite interesting and ridiculously over complicated. For what good reason?

By all means refute scientific evidence. But do it with a researched theory that backs it up, preferably with evidence as well, that has been properly peer reviewed. Science is not a religion. It's a bunch of theories that have, or have yet to be proven. Science that has been disproved is no longer counted as useful. If they can disprove - then go ahead and do it for the good of humanity. But if all they are doing is denying science reality to suit their own personal feelings of self and existence, then they are not really doing the world, or anyone else, any favours.

That's turned into a bit of an incoherent rant....apologies!

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 26/08/2016 15:51

Memoires the things that scare you also scare me.

I worry for my whole family.

Horny the people who are writing those things and being abusive towards lesbian are disgusting. No human being should be coerced into sleeping with another. The people who are saying those things are exactly the same ilk as the men 30 years ago who believed that lesbians just needed to shag the right man to suddenly transform into a straight woman.

I agree with you to a point about children. There is a certain 'support' site that imo actively encourages boy + doll = trans 4 year old and it's terrifying. However there is a lot of therapy etc to be had before a child is offered hormones (in the UK at least, it's very different in america). To be actively putting your child through this kind of thing is child abuse isn't always true though, it really isn't.

VikingLady · 26/08/2016 15:51

I have wondered whether some cases of transgender self-identifications are a form of body dysmorphia.

NauticalDisaster · 26/08/2016 16:01

I would be careful quoting American organisations re the impact of transitioning children, the American College of Pediatricians is a right wing, conservative splinter group that is homophobic: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians

In a rush to find an established organisation to confirm beliefs you can end up with strange and unwelcome bedfellows.

HornyTortoise · 26/08/2016 16:08

I also posted a (long and waffly unfortunately but I couldnt stop once I started) reply on the mercatornet story about this. Encouraging people to come and view the entire threads on this matter and judge for themselves if we are all transphobic or speaking sense and encouraging everyone to speak out about it all, wherever they can. Its awaiting moderation, hopefully it goes through.

AuntGertrude · 26/08/2016 16:20

Whilst I definitely agree with male-bodied people not being allowed into female-only spaces, would people say there is an issue with post-surgery MTT being in female-only spaces? Does male-pattern violence still mean it should be avoided?

There was a case I read about in this last week of a MTT individual who was in prison for rape, and had subsequently had SRS so no longer had a penis, but since they were considered a "woman", they were resident in a female prison: this person was continuing to sexually assault females by raping them with other objects. So a predatory male continued to abuse women even after SRS.

Lumidingo · 26/08/2016 16:27

Have any of you met any trans children, or know of one at your children's school or anything like that? Do any of you have kids that are trans? Are there any of you with close personal friends who happen to be trans?

venusinscorpio · 26/08/2016 16:29

Why would that change the discomfort we would feel about having biological men in our intimate sex-segregated spaces?

HornyTortoise · 26/08/2016 16:31

To be actively putting your child through this kind of thing is child abuse isn't always true though, it really isn't.

--

Sorry, I totally disagree. I define child as anyone under 16. I stand by my comment about it being child abuse effectively making this decision for them. Push them in this direction, they will start to believe it is true and that the only 'remedy' is to go through numerous surgeries and dangerous taking of hormones. Adults, do what you want with your own bodies. To encourage this in children is just wrong.

CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 16:31

"male-bodied people"

The word you are looking for is Men.

Men = Adult human males

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 26/08/2016 16:31

Lumidingo why do you want to know that?

Are you a name changer or have you just signed up?