This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

Morning all!

Just posted this reminder about being careful with RL identities on the Spartacus page, as someone referred to Miranda's partner by full name:

Please could people be very careful when using RL names? Miranda Yardley is openly active in public. Miranda's partner, despite the blog, is not. I have asked for that post mentioning Miranda's partner by full name to be redacted. We need to keep people safe and respect their privacy

Just placemarking for later. Damn you work, how dare you ruin my mumsnetting!

Place marking. Solidarity MNetters!

rumbling I just can't let the idea that it's all about toilets go unanswered!

But you were right, the Spartacus thread is for standing up and being virtually counted.

Oh dear. We have been called ignorant and/or goady in Spartacus

I'd love to see a "we support trans ideology and believe in ladybrain" thread. Funnily enough, they never appear.

I, for one, promise that if one appears I will not derail it.

Thank you for posting the link to this one Beyond

And thanks rumbling for calling me classy that one is going on my cv It's never happened before

I don't agree with the posts on the other thread calling everyone bigots and homophobic.

I also agree with the majority of views from the other thread.

However I can't sign that thread and agree to it because I can't agree with the view that using people's preferred pronouns is wrong.

As I said on that thread in an ideal world the majority of the trans community and the majority of the feminist community should really work together to make sure trans people have their spaces and women have their spaces.

If we all stood together saying the same thing we would drown out the voices of the extremists on both sides.

Having the communities at each other because of the views of the extremists is exactly what they want to achieve. Hate speech causes hate which is what they thrive on. Unfortunatly we are allowing it to happen.

I do agree with what you said Elsa

Most trans probably do want to just get on with their life and pass. No attention and no drama

The few activists are shouting so loudly that it is impossible not to hear or react to them which is causing the entire minority to have a bad name.

I am feeling less like a voice in the wilderness and more supported due to this.

I am a Feminist. I will fight to the bitter end any group who attempts to marginalise hard won rights, freedoms and safe spaces needed by biological Women because their female bodies put them at risk.

Elsa women are on the defensive here. It is our rights that are in danger of being removed. Being polite has rarely got us anywhere tbh.

Glosswitch has just posted on p18 of the Spartacus thread, she makes some excellent points about pronouns and how we talk about gender.

I would fully support trans wings in jail, trans refuges etc.

As I said on the other thread I hear a lot of people saying that trans people should fight for these things as women had to.

As these issues have an impact on women I do think that women should be fighting for these things too not just saying 'not my problem, get in with it yourself'.

The day that a trans refuge gets opened then the extremists voice will not have as much impact because there is a safe space for trans people then.

I think most people agree with you elsa, they're just being rather abrasive on the thread to prove a point.

I would never call a transwoman posting on a thread (or that I was talking to in real life) "he". If they are post op, or even mid-transistion, I (personally) have no real issue with changing rooms etc. But I understand why some people do and feel that, at present, they have a lot less of a voice than the vocal TRAs/AFTAs.

I think that there is a very large difference between being careful and minding your manners talking to someone directly, and discussing a rapist. I think mn need to view misgendering as they would any other personal attack, and not as a higher priority. At the moment, I can write that Boris Johnson is an arsehole but not that Jenner is a man (I will use "Caitlin" when "Bruce" is no longer a member of the male only golf club), and that is wrong.

I feel like we have explained our position a hundred times. But for whatever reason - money, misogyny, fear, a misguided sense of what is progressive - we are not being listened to.

Already, "an ever increasing tide"* of violent male prisoners are transitioning in order to access female prisons, and the women and equality committee's response is to make this process easier.

But one by one, words are being labelled as hate.

If we cannot say who is male and who is female, we lose.

• this is the phrase used by the British association of gender id specialists.

The problem is, the activists don't want their own wings as it would be discrimination. They don't want to be known as trans. They want to be a woman. Or at least redefine what women are

That is abrasive while remaining factual.

Many refuges accept transwomen already. I agree with you Elsa, I want a balance if rights, and I believe it's possible.

This is a brilliant document on the proposed legal changes:
www.womenanalysingpolicyonwomen.WordPress.com

I get that Beyond I'll admit some of it is a little hard to read when it's an issue that has had a massive impact on my life.

I understand why people are taking it to that extreme on that thread because it also has the potential to massively impact the posters lives too.

It's horrendous to watch the actions of a few causing so much hatred and being unable to do anything about it.

The problem is, the activists don't want their own wings as it would be discrimination. They don't want to be known as trans. They want to be a woman. Or at least redefine what women are

This is the crux of it really. There needs to be a clear law, and there isn't.

There will always be someone pushing to be allowed into women's spaces, there always has been, even before the whole trans thing, but if trans people have their spaces then the voice of the extremists are effectively silenced. At the moment they don't have their own space and it's basically easier to try and hijack what's already there.

I'll have a read of that document just now, thanks of

However I can't sign that thread and agree to it because I can't agree with the view that using people's preferred pronouns is wrong

I signed, but I will always use preferred pronouns. I will not however call someone like ada well a woman, or similar Transactivists. They are misogynistic bullies. Using the Trans mmovement for their own ends.

They are the ones insiting hate, they are the ones creating hostility towards everyone.

A lot of the trans community is being dragged along by them, and tarred to the same brush as these type of TA.

I have respect, and want to help the trans community, to achieve rights, be able to live how they want, without prejudice.

But men who spout such hate, rape, and are in positions of power to change our rights as women. Will never have my respect. I will call the a man.

Any other company would have formulated a full response by now. Why the delay?

Got to word it carefully. They want to please us AND still be PC. I don't expect them to agree with us. Not at all. I just don't expect them to shut down any conversation where women's rights are being abolished. As a business they shouldn't be biased towards anyone.

Holidays, apparently.

I don't want them to agree (though it'd be nice!), I just want misgendering not to be ranked as The Worst Offence On Mumsnet. I don't want people to be banned for stating they won't do it in a hypothetical future situation - Can you imagine if that applied to anything else?!

I think I can say that - odds are - at some point in the future I will call a troll a cock and tell them to fuck off. I've been told off for rising to GFs before so, like posie, I am stating I probably will break a guideline I have been warned about. Is this post itself a ban-able offence?
(I hope not as I can't get in my mn email at the moment !! )

Got to word it carefully. They want to please us AND still be PC

Surely its fairly simple?

Saying negative things about transfolk is transphobia and should be deleted e.g "transfolk are fucking tranny weirdos who all want to perve on women"

Saying neutral / factual things is not transphobia e.g "transwomen are male"

I am the poster previously known as SpecialAgentFreyPie

MNHQ originally promise to contact them today with a 'I promise to be a good girl' comment. Thanks to all of you, when I said 'I want to come home,' they apologised for the delay in reinstating me, no questions asked.

MNHQ's 'explanation' of why I was banned took a long time, was very hurtful and Biphobic. I raged, wasn't going to come back but decided this place is my virtual 'home,' and I was moved to tears when I saw the level of support I received. I was going to post their email to me, but I realised they didn't even realise how offensive and homophobic their comments were. So I decided to be more open about my sexual identity, come back, and Fight Back.

I'm done. No more female pronouns for any trans person, with the exception obviously on here. Every trans person will be referred to by their first name, as I'm not a rule breaker by calling them he. But no way if fucking hell after that are Adult Human Males who I find offensive, biphobic, lesphobic will ever hear the word 'she' pass through my lips or typed ever, ever again. I' not even bothering to state the obvious with rapists.
War has been declared now, and I can no longer afford to give a shiny shit about anyone's feelings.

I'd like to comment on two things tohugh.
MNHQ did not ban me for calling Ada horrible. From what I can gather, someone reported literally every. Single. One of my posts on that thread because in the previous one, I had begun to question how I could make a difference in the real world. I was silenced for this, even if the offical reason was nit technically 'someone is reporting every single post you make because you are trying to talk about Ada in real life.' Proetction was mentioned.

1. MNHQ did not warn me and I continued, please don't make up lies that imply I'm an arsehole.
2. I did not know the OP of that thread, and I certainly did not ask her to harass Ego. I have no idea what that was all about, oe why she took my banso personlly.

In my MN-free time, I have organised for next week to meet up with six mothers, 2 who are Lesbians so we can iscuss how to raise awareness. A FB page and a public boycott of the swimming pool we all take our DC to that has introduced rules about transwoman have so far been considered.

I'm very heartened by how quickly more and more women became involved, with more getting involved as word of mouth spreads. It was originally me meeting up with two lesbian gilfriends to discuss my bisexuality! Ironically, the ban hardened me into being pissed off enough to not just complain on here, when I never would have dared even let people know my genuine opinions in real life.

I am TERF. I am proud. I am woman.

Welcome back