This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I find it shocking too.

But I still feel disheartened by your post that comes across slightly as, you simply said the right things to get the result you personally needed

I said some people said that. For me, it's the body. And the fact that I self medicated for a year before the appointment. And was self harming. Years of depression. And I hadn't come out. This was all going on whilst 'I was still seen as male' at work and home.

Those were big clues to them that something wasn't right.

I transitioned three years ago and I've been on HRT for three year. 2 years self medding and one year through the GIC. I'm booked for surgery in November.

Why? To relieve the dysphoria that started to totally take over my every waking thought about four years ago and eventually led me to being suicidally depressed because I hated myself and I couldn't make it go away.

I'm much better now.

ut I still feel disheartened by your post that comes across slightly as, you simply said the right things to get the result you personally needed.

YY. If you have a medical need for surgery to help with dysphoria then how you dress should not come into it. Why can't one be a "tomboy" transwoman? It's the same thing as the "living as a woman" for 2 years to get a GRC - what does "living as a woman" actually mean

At my most recent appointment at the GIC I thought I'd push the boundaries a bit by saying that I'm not delusional. I don't think that we are actually female. It went down like a lead balloon and I was told that Transwomen are women. I thought I was going to get kicked out.

Again, absolutely shocking.

This seems to be something else I had no idea happened and something else that will now stick in my head for days on end, and fucking anger me. This approach is so irresponsible and wrong.

When i listen to accounts of dysphoria it doesn't really sound very different to other crippling mental illness. I've no idea why it's categorised or considered to be different.

And agree with Hornytortoise, it all seems so lazy and ill thought-out.

Why? To relieve the dysphoria that started to totally take over my every waking thought about four years ago and eventually led me to being suicidally depressed because I hated myself and I couldn't make it go away

I get that. Totally get that. Hope the surgery goes ok.

what does "living as a woman" actually mean

Indeed.

If you have a medical need for surgery to help with dysphoria then how you dress should not come into it

6 years it took. My MN posting record records all the shit involved and how low and all the MH issues associated with it - just to make sure and to see 'if I could handle life like that'

Ego I'm glad you came back.

I've read everything that Helen has posted here and on her blog, and I am learning a lot.
If you don't mind educating someone who is learning about this issue, I'm interested to hear your experiences (only if you're comfortable posting it).

From what Helen has posted here, it seems as if there are at least 2 (possibly more) groups under the umbrella of transwoman.....I have a problem with the group that wants to appropriate and define what all women are.

I said some people said that. For me, it's the body. And the fact that I self medicated for a year before the appointment. And was self harming. Years of depression. And I hadn't come out. This was all going on whilst 'I was still seen as male' at work and home.

Those were big clues to them that something wasn't right.

Apologies seems I misunderstood your post a little, My point still stands though that I find this a terrible way to go about things as sensitive as this, basically confirming all societys made up gender stereotypes are indeed correct, and anyone who does not adhere to them is actually in the wrong body rather than any other possible alternative :/

Another who finds that shocking.

That said, I went for an assessment for Asperger's and my notes record how I was dressed and presented myself - always looking for evidence of stereotypes!

My point still stands though that I find this a terrible way to go about things as sensitive as this, basically confirming all societys made up gender stereotypes are indeed correct

I agree - and that's a concern I have about trans kids. That said, I knew something was wrong as a teenager and I know that if I had been a teen 'now', I am sure I would have transitioned.

But we can't turn back time. Yet it really fucking hurts me that I can't and I really really struggle with that knowledge that I didn't. I would have had a very different life. It is the biggest regret of my life - but life was different back then.

When i listen to accounts of dysphoria it doesn't really sound very different to other crippling mental illness. I've no idea why it's categorised or considered to be different.

I often wonder this too. The treatment for sex/gender dysphoria (ie top/,bottom surgery) appears to be so very different from what is offered to BDD, or anorexia sufferers.

Yet it really fucking hurts me that I can't and I really really struggle with that knowledge that I didn't. I would have had a very different life. It is the biggest regret of my life

But you are happier now you have transitioned I hope

But you are happier now you have transitioned I hope

Yes. Much happier.

We all have regrets in life. Dealing with them is something we have to do.

The problem is that, from what I can tell, a lot of the current trans teens/young folk aren't experiencing dysphoria or at least not to a significant enough level to warrant the level of intervention which full gender reassignment represents. Not the same, but as a female Aspie who wasn't diagnosed until I was 27 I know where you are coming from with thinking how different things might have been if my condition had been recognised when I was younger, which it would be now I think.

But my fear with trans issues is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way and in the desire and determination to be inclusive and right on we're calling people trans who are really just young people exploring their identity and sexuality - but now the world of tumblr and twitter gives every twist and turn a label.

and anyone who does not adhere to them is actually in the wrong body rather than any other possible alternative

At the moment it's not quite that straightfoward at all - but it would be if the TRA's get their way.

The GIC's are looking for a persistent feeling of significant distress and do a lot of gatekeeping. It's not just about how you dress. Before surgery they also need you to prove that you can cope and that it's really the right thing for you hence the 2 year "real life test". You have to show that you can live that way successfully i.e. change your name, be demonstrably living in a way that others clearly see you as presenting as a woman. Interact sociably, Hold down a job or be in education etc. So that's why your apperance is looked at.

However the TRA's are pushingto get rid of all of this gatekeeping and instead moving to a system of self identification which would just be bloody awful IMHO. That's what people need to be aware of.

But my fear with trans issues is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way and in the desire and determination to be inclusive and right on we're calling people trans who are really just young people exploring their identity and sexuality - but now the world of tumblr and twitter gives every twist and turn a label.

Yeah I totally agree

Life lessons from Dalai lama

Ego147

Thank you for being open and honest about your views on this. truly. I don't want to come across as fawning or anything but I do believe that the first step towards understanding this is talking about it, which has been stifled for so long under the guise of 'transphobia'. I hope nothing I have posted has came across as transphobic to you. I do not believe myself to be transphobic and would actually be horrified if I was thought of as that by a trans person (not including people who think lesbians refusing penis is transphobic...nope not having it). I am simply curious about everything to do with it all. And want to learn, I want all kinds of experiences, even if they go against what I believe myself. I believe this is an issue long overdue a decent conversation about, and I thank you for sticking around despite the attempts some have made to shut YOU down also.

I am so happy you finally feel comfortable in yourself.

Thanks Ego

But my fear with trans issues is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way and in the desire and determination to be inclusive and right on we're calling people trans who are really just young people exploring their identity and sexuality

Which comes back to gender stereotypes, expectations and enforced roles - and dress codes.

You see it on MN all the time - my boy wants to wear a dress, likes pink.

If a boy wants to wear a skirt, he should not be told that he can't do it because society says no. Boys don't do that. He should not be told that he must be a girl because he is like that.

But that requires a massive change in society. It also needs society to be safer - from male violence especially - for people who are different. I have had more than my share of male violence and I know what it's like.

Ego it's usually me that's accused of being transphobic. I hope I don't come across that way either. I know how hard it is and wouldn't want to cause anyone distress (again unless they are obviously male socialised "female penis owning lesbians" (just going to puke after havimg typed that) in which case they can fuck off).

(i.e. change your name, be demonstrably living in a way that others clearly see you as presenting as a woman. Interact sociably, Hold down a job or be in education etc. So that's why your apperance is looked at.

Ahh I see now. Yes, that does make sense.

In essence, we are back to the 'passing' thing right? Something that some people think does not matter in the slightest and that an obvious guy with a big beard and such should be able to just...be a woman. Where 'real' (I hate to use that word but its the only one I feel I can make sense with for the following) trans women or trans men would actually make an effort to 'pass' as the sex they wish to be/are? Am I going down the right train of thought here? :S

TAs want to remove all of this. And thus (IMO) would also be removing the years of work put in by 'real' trans people to match the sex they feel they are inside?

pretty much tortoise