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This is bullshit. Thread #2

999 replies

BeyondSpecialSnowflake · 26/08/2016 08:48

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

OP posts:
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8
HermioneWeasley · 28/08/2016 19:14

LGBTEXEC can you point us to the essays you wrote condemning Ada/Nate when they were calling for lesbians who wouldn't have sex with men to be expelled for transphobia. Or how you campaigned for them to be removed when they called women "cuntscum"? I can't seem to find them

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 19:29

Ok my thoughts on calling transwomen men for what it's worth, Obviously these are just my personal thoughts - not everyone will agree and that's cool.

This is complicated so apologies in advance if this goes a bit rambly.

My way of thinking about it is that humans like all mammals are sexually domorphic. That's biology 101 right? Sure there are a tiny percentage of people that are intersex, but bringing that up is just appropriation and is disingenuous. Most (all?) transwomen are male. Penis, sperm, prostate etc.

Now that 'should' be undisputable. Some TA's do and frankly I put them in the same camp as flat earthers.

Where it gets a bit trickier for me is how we define 'man' and 'woman'. The dictionary is usually a pretty good place to start. According to The Oxford English Dictionary:

man
noun
Adult human male.

So according to the dictionary definition I'm a man. In fact all transwomen are men. I've heard people say that it's a morally neutral statement. It's not a judgement statement or meant to be derisory. It's just a statement of fact.

So why do we get so upset at being called men?

I think it's because man means so much more than just adult human male. It has so much social connotation.

connotation
noun
An idea or feeling which a word invokes for a person in addition to its literal or primary meaning.

'Man' invokes all of the thoughts and feelings we have about men in the social context of our society. I can't say that this is the same for all transwomen (and certainly not for transactivists), but to me man means sexist, misogynyst, thoughtless, violent. I have very negative connotations with the word man. I guess to me I just associate the word man with tocxic masculinity.

I once heard a transwoman say "I don't know what I am but whatever it is I'm definitely not a man". Nobody said anything at the time but I know now that pretty much everbody's silent reaction was to think "Who are you kidding? You are clearly a man."

And they are a man. An adult human male. But they desperately didn't want to be lumped under that word which means so much more than adult human male.

I think I've worked beyond this now and I no longer get upset by being called a man or 'he' but I understand why others do. I also don't lay any claim to womanhood or to be called she or her. Some people do call me those things and that's cool. Some people don't and that's also cool.

There is another dynamic that we need to be honest about though. The transgender umbrella has been getting bigger and bigger and men (and I use that word intentionally) who are some of the most vile misogynists I've had the misfortune to encounter claim womanhood, and 'she' and 'her' and have devleloped this culture of entitlement (male entitlement?) and victimhood.

These TRA's harm transexuals so much with their bullshit.

I know that this is a bit #notallmen but I thought it worth trying to explain something from the pint of view of someone who is trans.

Sorry again that was a ramble.

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 19:30

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU NOT ANGRY ABOUT THAT, LGBTEXEC

Yup.

venusinscorpio · 28/08/2016 19:37

See Helen, I can understand that person thinking "I am not a man". Given toxic masculinity etc. Which indicates an empathic, feeling person. What I have a problem with is is the leap to believing that person is therefore a woman. A not-man. Especially when they fail to empathise with women in any way. Your post was great, and made me think. Thank you. I appreciate your honesty.

venusinscorpio · 28/08/2016 19:40

Apologies about the stereotype that a woman is empathic and feeling, but I think that is why people sometimes reject toxic masculinity.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 28/08/2016 19:43

If I've understood you right Helen it's not so much feeling like a woman for some, it's that the term "man" is what is objectionable. It's rejecting everything considered "male" about oneself because masculine doesn't fit? And the only other "option" or opposite from "male", is "female".

How does this tie in with autogynephilia?

mirandayardley · 28/08/2016 19:44

AGuyCalledHelen
Yes, 'man' and 'woman' are both social constructions as well as biological realities; 'man' and 'woman' are gendered roles. Males are not subject to the same gendered socialisation as females and this has profound implications for any trans male who is attempting to assert they meet the social constructivist definition.

Here's a great piece on what it means to become a woman, indeed a lot of this issue of 'Philosophy Now' is given over to de Beauvoir - Becoming a Woman: Simone de Beauvoir on Female Embodiment.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 28/08/2016 19:45

yy venus it's pushing "women" to be the "not men" category. If someone doesn't feel like a man, they by default must be a woman. Which is wrong for many reasons. Not least because it is defining women by what men are not, rather than just defining women for what they are.

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 19:45

venus
You're right that it is a stereotype but is what we are all toaught and led to believe. It's a message that society reinforces constantly. This is also why some transexuals believe that they "identify as women".

That is why transgender ideology is in fact reactionary and deeply conservative whilst appearing to be progressive and liberal.

venusinscorpio · 28/08/2016 19:52

I totally think we are getting to the heart of the matter both as to why this is so problematic to women and why some men want to transition. All these last points raised are very valid.

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 19:52

Miranda would you mind relinking the piece by Anne Lawrence about how autogynephilia moves from erotic beginnings into a more romantic non-erotic relationship with the self.

Vicki it may or may not exist alongside autogynephilia (agp for short) . Some people who are agp are also empathic and reject masculinity and have always been aware of misogyny so 'man' hurts in the way I described above.

For others who are agp, I think "man" hurts because it reminds them that they are trans and they have deep unresolved internalised transphobia. Telling themselves that they are a woman is an internal lie to justify things to themself. The reaction is akin to narcissistic rage.

It's not a one size fits all thing.

WrongTrouser · 28/08/2016 19:52

felas and Veni, thanks for answering my question about comparisons with racism - yes, I see why it is an unhelpful/inaccurate comparison.

mirandayardley · 28/08/2016 20:01

Anne Lawrence's 'Becoming What We Love'. I've also attempted to explain autogynephilia in two earlier posts in this thread.

microferret · 28/08/2016 20:09

This is a great, thoughtful debate. If only the people who dropped into Spartacus to be derisive were willing to engage in meaningful dialogue rather than just trying to guilt us into shutting up...
Thanks for your input Helen. I do want to use preferred pronouns, in general I'm happy to do so, if I feel that the person in question is unobtrusive and not aggressively demanding anything of me. Ironically, because I'm so used to men demanding my attention, time and subservience, I find it almost impossible to use the preferred pronouns of any trans woman who behaves in a domineering and aggressive manner, because it's just about the most stereotypically male thing someone can do! I wish some of the more vocal trans women could understand that the more they bully and harangue, the less feminine they seem.

HornyTortoise · 28/08/2016 20:10

Helen Do you mind if I post your Sun 28-Aug-16 19:29:24 post at some stage on the discussion (that is still being allowed!!) on the forum I moderate on? I have a feeling the convo may well go in that direction soon and it would be useful to actually be able to post an actual trans womans opinion rather than my own or those of TAs.

Mainly this part tbh, as it encompasses my main issues with the current trans-movement and puts it across so much better than I could

'There is another dynamic that we need to be honest about though. The transgender umbrella has been getting bigger and bigger and men (and I use that word intentionally) who are some of the most vile misogynists I've had the misfortune to encounter claim womanhood, and 'she' and 'her' and have devleloped this culture of entitlement (male entitlement?) and victimhood.

These TRA's harm transexuals so much with their bullshit.'

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 28/08/2016 20:13

Helen
So basically trans people are as fucked off to be put into gender roles as feminists have been all these years? Yey! Can totally support that. I can't support them stepping all over me because of it

VeniVidiVickiQV · 28/08/2016 20:15

Thanks Helen. I know it's not the same for all, so I'm careful to use "some" and not make all encompassing statements.

It does seem that trans ideology has turned from an umbrella term into such a massive marquis to incorporate everything that is related to man/woman/male/female/masculine/feminine and anything and everything inbetween.

What started off as a tent for built for, and made by women, where some who felt like they didn't belong in the men's or mixed tent were welcomed for some sanctuary and support, has become the default marquis for everyone who are "not men" and want women to make room for all of them too. Then along come the TRAs who are misogynistic, aggressive types and are the ones who shout the loudest in the marquis, so the marquis becomes "that big tent over there full of trans folks with the loud shouty TRAs that hate all women."

So it's really not surprising that women want to distance themselves from that big shouty marquis with the people in it that hate them to find sanctuary of their own.

That big ol intersectional tent is not so much intersectional as it is dominated by those who shout the loudest, claiming that what they are saying in the marquis must be heard and applied to everyone in there. Not so much intersectional at all, really, when you think about it.

Rambling...sorry.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 28/08/2016 20:19

And no problem, wrong Smile

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 20:19

So it's really not surprising that women want to distance themselves from that big shouty marquis with the people in it that hate them to find sanctuary of their own.

Not surprising at all is it!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2016 20:20

'Man' invokes all of the thoughts and feelings we have about men in the social context of our society. I can't say that this is the same for all transwomen (and certainly not for transactivists), but to me man means sexist, misogynyst, thoughtless, violent. I have very negative connotations with the word man. I guess to me I just associate the word man with tocxic masculinity.

So for you, being a transwoman is a rejection of the male gender as well as the male sex IYSWIM?. Males aren't inherently thoughtless, sexist etc, it's all to do with male privilege/early socialisation etc

I think it is illustrative of how utterly fucked up the idea of gender it is and the actual genuine harm it does.

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 20:22

Tortoise

Yes of course - that's fine.

I wrote this today as well which may (or may not!) be of interest

transavant.tumblr.com/post/149594568757/whats-my-deal

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 20:23

So for you, being a transwoman is a rejection of the male gender as well as the male sex IYSWIM?

Yes absolutely.

I think it is illustrative of how utterly fucked up the idea of gender it is and the actual genuine harm it does.

I totally agree and I wish more trans people could come to understand this.

mirandayardley · 28/08/2016 20:23

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
to me man means sexist, misogynyst, thoughtless, violent

Speaking as a transsexual, that's most transgender activists tbh.

AGuyCalledHelen · 28/08/2016 20:25

that's most transgender activists tbh

yup

HornyTortoise · 28/08/2016 20:26

That article made me tear up a bit tbh. It must be so hard living 'differently' than society accepts, while being attacked by those who claim to represent people like yourself.

It is, IMO, correct that this TA bullshit is going to cause a huge backlash, and it will not be the TAs that suffer, it will be the people they say they views represent. Would you say, among other trans people you have met and such, that your view points (generally) around this are more common than those shouted from the rooftops by the militant TAs?