This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

Before you are demodded, maybe post the Edinburgh uni link, as a parting shot for them to mull over.

Funnily enough I am not banned nor has the discussion been deleted and it has now changed for people to speak civilly about it all, like this thread. I am sure it will be deleted before long once it gets reported though and then the shit will hit the fan as I ask admin to define our official position on 'transphobia'

The edinburgh uni thing has been discussed already and written off as one psycho person who is in no way representative of the trans movement anymore than Myra Hindley is representative of women :S

Sounds like some more examples need to surface, just gradually, in the course of conversation not as though you are bombarding with "transphobic" content. Maybe a link to something by Miranda/Helen/someone similar who highlights issues like the cotton ceiling and shows how widespread it is?

Well done for being brave enough to raise it.

HornyTortoise
the shit will hit the fan as I ask admin to define our official position on 'transphobia'

Here is a real conflict, because if a refusal by women to give the courtesy of preferred pronouns to transgender males is regarded as 'transphobia', then women, as an oppressed group, are unable to define who women are and to identify the oppressor class. This really is actual oppression, and of course the irony is that a site which was created to centre mothers (all of whom are female) is suddenly prioritising a class of people that it has nothing to do with.

Well thats good that its now being discussed. Plus the EU thing maybe written off now, but the knowledge is there so the next similar thing will prick there interest.

Maybe some are already reading about a bit.

Have you seen this petition to drop the T from LGBT?

www.change.org/p/human-rights-campaign-glaad-lambda-legal-the-advocate-out-magazine-huffpost-gay-voices-drop-the-t

Hi wrong - I think felas has covered most of it particularly well.

The other point for me, is the statement made, suggests that racism isn't alive and well and an ongoing issue, nor does it find it's way into everyday life. It patently is and does.

Yes, we all know and accept that racism is bad. The problem often lies with, what people define as racism. There is still a load of bigotry about black people, and things said that are just plain racist, but because it's not outwardly vicious or antagonistic, it's not picked up on. It's all harmful and prejudicial rhetoric, nonetheless. It perpetuates myths and fallacies that black people are unable to shake off or enable them to be treated or viewed equally. For eg, many people don't think being anti-immigration is a racist stance. It is.

There's nuance, and thought processes that mean black people are at such a huge disadvantage still (even though there is a black US president, and many successful black people like Oprah, Kanye, JayZ, MLK, Beyonce, Maya Angelou etc etc). That's without the out and out racist comments, KKK stuff, violence, and police bias that is killing so many black americans. (I'm sure you've read why #alllivesmatter and #policelivesmatter is harmful to the #blacklivesmatter hashtag?)

In addition, the comparison ties in with the problem we have in the UK especially, whereby people say or do something that is racist (usually unintentionally), and when they are told that it is racist, they act as though you have injured them somehow (rather than consider their point of view or actions). Because being called racist is seemingly more of an insult than racism itself.

So to say "if you changed x word for racist word, it would be picked up on" is a) unhelpful, b) inaccurate and c) belittles racism as an ongoing struggle (even though it comes from good intentions).

I hope that helps explain my point a bit more clearly? And I haven't derailed THIS thread by making it about racism.... ?

There is an awesome video on FB/Twitter at the moment about white fragility workplace training - you can find it via Google.

It has some interesting parallels I think , and is awesome in its own right

This one? twitter.com/ajplus/status/769593805599158272

Do you know, I'm so fucking mad about all this. On the other thread there is a gay women, supposedly representing LGBT issues, fully prepared to throw all women under the bus to protect TW right to fuck lesbians and take women's safe places. We are having right on women coming on here to shame call us and virtue signal. What the actual fuck? (I know I'm ranting but I am very fearful of this dystopian anti science world that seems to be coming our way)

Can someone link me to the Orwell essay that was being discussed?

Politics and the English Language

I noticed that the poster had no argument except for 'this is all bullshit' and 'you should be ashamed' and scrolled past tbh. Reasoned arguments against the many concerns registered in the thread, fine..that would actually be fantastic. Attempting to stifle discussion in the way they did...nah. Thats gone on for way too long now.

Unlockable, in answer to your question if you're still about- there was an FTM student at a girls' grammar school near me. She decided to transition before coming back for 6th form (I think).

The student was allowed to wear trousers/use the staff toilet, unlike anyone else. Knowing the school, it was unbelievably strict and big on "the Catholic ethos". I'm sure the student wouldn't have been allowed to transition, if it weren't for the anti-discrimination laws, which state that the school can retain its single-sex status in this situation.

Not too sure where they'd stand on letting an MTF pupil in though.

Thanks Miranda

Sorry about posting on the other thread. It's hard not to respond though

Have not read the thread.
In reply to Ego147 on the spartacus thread....

I have no intention of belittling the struggle of someone who feels utterly uncomfortable in their body
I accept that this is 'better language' and I apologise for upset caused to someone who has this struggle.
It is totally against my nature to deliberately cause hurt or offence to anyone.

I stand over my assertion that the struggle has been hijacked by men with a different agenda...one that is power/dominance driven

Ego, I understand you don't like the fact that posters are asserting that trans women are men on the Spartacus thread. That is what they believe and there is no scientific proof otherwise. I don't feel it's fair to ask us to walk on eggshells around you. People have said they will use the pronouns people want. This is a courtesy. I find it abusive to be gaslighted into contorting my language in this way. What do you suggest I do?

I didn't make it clear. I am happy to use the pronoun she with regards to you. But as a rape survivor don't expect me to use it about a rapist.

Ego
Isn't it? I forgot - it's a thread to call trans people men, isn't it? No discussion. Just calling out well known trans people as men and not discussing it.

By your and TA definition, some of the trans people are men though aren't they? Or is it only the MTTs who are worth mentioning?

Sorry from me too, it's hard to not!

Re LGBTEXEC I find it terrifying that a lesbian is defending the rights of men to "identify" as lesbian and harass women who won't sleep with them. And she is completely dismissive of an individual who sexually assaulted 3 women and 1 girl after accessing a series of women's shelters saying he was trans. We've been told THIS NEVER HAPPENS. And when we point out its already happened, we're told it was one guy who isn't trans and it was aaaaaages ago.

I've asked before - what's the acceptable number of women and girls to be sexual,y assuaulted as a result of this? What's the right amount of collateral damage women should suffer? (For me, it's zero)

The bottom line is that women don't matter. Trans people are the most oppressed in the world, according to the doctrine, therefore their rights trump everyone else.

Well transwomen anyway... Nobody care about the transmen it seems

Just to recap (I'm sorry I haven't read all of the two threads as I get the gist) but has HQ commented at all in the 1800 posts?

MNHQ are going to look at the issue over "the coming weeks"...

But it a scientific truth that men and woman are different because of their biology, their genital and reproductive biology.

Much as I want to accommodate other trans people, because I am kind, I cannot agree with something that I know to be false i.e. that a transwoman is a subset of women (or that FTT is a man but no one seems to care about FTT). It's anti science, anti logic, anti intellectualism. I am cannot fathom that seemingly intelligent people like Ego are demanding that I abandon all sense and agree with their agenda. I can't, it's not honest. I wish trans people all the best in the world but I will not be a liar

In a world where lesbian students can be accused of transphobia for not liking penis, and lesbian schoolgirls can be hounded out of LGBT societies they started for objecting to the phrase "cis scum", WHY THE HELL ARE YOU NOT ANGRY ABOUT THAT, LGBTEXEC?

Why are you here yelling at women (including lesbian & bi women) standing up for themselves instead of defending the lesbian & bi women students you're presumably responsible for?

Why are you not worried about all the gender nonconforming girls who would have grown up lesbian and are being pushed into being transmen instead?

Are we the easy target?

Speaking as one of the many lesbians & bi women on this thread, I'm bloody glad I'm not a student.