This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I wrote this today as well which may (or may not!) be of interest

It was interesting

I find myself wondering why it seems so important to so many that they are seen as literal woman, as opposed to just accepting things in the way that you do.

Surely, as you said in your piece, most TW know that they are male - would folk not be happier if a transwoman was defined as a male who chose to live their life femininely, opposed to TW feeling they have to actually be a woman which can't ever happen?

I'm really rambling I know, but it seems to me sometimes that TRAs don't actually want to be women, they just want what they see women have without any attempt at empathy - does that make any sense at all?

From t'other spartacus thread:

Portia , I'm sorry for what you have been through. I can see why you feel angry.

It's a sad and distressing fact though, that TRAs use suicide as a way to constantly shut down debate in order to silence women's protests to trans ideology. It makes me angry that they do it too. It all to often clouds discussion, and is an appalling thing to do.In fact I've seen TRAs say to someone that their opinions "murder" trans people because it causes them to commit suicide. So I imagine that's why people are on top of it on this thread, and don't want to perpetuate an abuse that TRAs use. All part of the damage they are doing to women like us, and you.

Would you say, among other trans people you have met and such, that your view points (generally) around this are more common than those shouted from the rooftops by the militant TAs?

I guess it depends where you look. Online people like Miranda and I are in the tiny minority and are villified and pilloried.

In real life it's a bit more mixed. I think most transexual people I know are somewhere inbetween. They think I'm wrong and that they are women and that most women are inclusive and see that as a great thing. But they also see that some of the most "strident" TA's are pretty awful and do us a disservice.

they just want what they see women have without any attempt at empathy

Yes makes total sense. Ironic isn't it? Those that claim to be women the most stridently are the ones that show their male socialisation most clearly!

For me personally, my body is wrong, It does not match up with how I feel about myself. Everything is wrong.

Coming out, getting HRT and being able to be myself was a relief. It helped so so much.

I would NEVER describe myself as male. I just can't. I don't know how to describe myself but male is a term I can't handle. I might have physically had a male body but it sure as hell was not the body I should have had.

Something is not right. Is it hormonal in the brain when developing? Were my chromosomes affected when they expressed themselves? What caused me to totally reject everything about myself and who I am?

I have no idea why I am like I am. As for gender - I don't live by it and I certainly don't follow the 'gender expectations'. All this 'bloke in a dress' is so stereotypical and it's not me. But I do want to blend in and not be noticed. For so many reasons.

I am going to be very careful what I post on here from now on.

Having been personally in a relationship where someone threatened suicide when I didn't do what they say I can't help but find any such emotional blackmail offensive. Boundaries are important.

Ego that was a cross post. It wasn't aimed at you.

Ego that was a cross post. It wasn't aimed at you

I know. But that reply appreciated

Hi Ego!

It's important that your voice is heard. I can only ever express things through the lens of my experience. My experience is far from universal and you should totally be allowed to express and share your experiences too. It's sad if you feel that you can't do that.

I didn't always hate my body, That was something that developed over time. I always hated being a man but I think that over time I started to link my physical maleness with masculinity. I was always trans and always ashamed of it and hid it and tried not to be. When I was about 39 I started to develope really uncontrollable debilitating dysphoria.

Did you always have those feelings of dysphoria?

Nice to chat to you by the way. Looks like you've had a bit of a rough time.

I guess it depends where you look. Online people like Miranda and I are in the tiny minority and are villified and pilloried.

In real life it's a bit more mixed. I think most transexual people I know are somewhere inbetween. They think I'm wrong and that they are women and that most women are inclusive and see that as a great thing. But they also see that some of the most "strident" TA's are pretty awful and do us a disservice.

I didn't mean on the use of pronouns and such, I meant on the issue of TAs doing more harm than good. As it seems quite prevalent from what I have read/heard. I am having a discussion on another forum (yes, I have 3 discussions going at once on an issue that I bore no real thought to a few days back..weird) which includes a FtM transexual who also agrees that the way trans-activism is going right now is going to be harmful to transpeople rather than make a positive difference. She views herself as a woman, but says she would rather go down the route of making 'safe spaces' for transpeople an addition to how things are now, rather than imposing herself onto womens current safe spaces (main safe space discussed changing rooms and refuges) and risking making them feel uncomfortable. Her view is that she wants to feel comfortable (without being leered at by men..funnily enough) but does not wish to make others uncomfortable, and that while she views herself as a woman, she accepts that some biological differences cannot be erased.

I'm glad you realise that. I don't want to hurt you or for you to be hurt indirectly. But I have to be true to myself, just like you do.

can only ever express things through the lens of my experience. My experience is far from universal and you should totally be allowed to express and share your experiences too

We each have our own experiences and can only say how we feel as individuals. Sometime I do think there's a trans narrative and 'things that need to be said to get through the hoops.

I have had a lot to say to the NHS about 'living as a woman' - and that has been inspired A LOT by what I have read on here. Shout out to FWR - yes, I do listen to what you say. It is bullshit when you think about it.

And don't get me started on 'she presented androgenously wearing jeans and t-shirt' - well so what FFS.

I do think the NHS and other bodies 'expect' a narrative. But at the same time, you've got people who want to get the HRT so will do what is expected.

Having been personally in a relationship where someone threatened suicide when I didn't do what they say I can't help but find any such emotional blackmail offensive. Boundaries are important.

I'm so sorry that you've experienced that venus. That's awful.

I find this a really difficult area because I can see both sides of it.
Suicide can be an abuser tactic and if you've ever been in abusive relationship where you've experienced that (like you have) then that's what you're going to see.

If you are genuinely suididal (I have been several years ago before finally coming out publicly - thankfully not now) then being accused of this is the last thing you need.

Oh it's too complicated. I don't know how to express this properly without putting my foot in it one way or another.

Don't get me started on the NHS Ego. That's a whole other topic!!!!

Sometime I do think there's a trans narrative and 'things that need to be said' to get through the hoops.

Yes. And tell yourself something often enough you'll start to believe it.

Ego147

I find it sad that you seem to be another voice adding to the 'medical professionals don't really understand' narrative. I know that isn't what you actually said, but its how I took it to mean, please correct me if I am wrong.

It should not be about saying the right things to get a tick in the checkbox, and I find it disgusting that something such as 'she presented androgenously wearing jeans and t-shirt' would be used in anyway in something such as this. This says to me that the NHS understand trans issues as nothing more than gender sterotypes, which in itself is rather worrying.

If people have to say things they do not necessarily believe (such as living as a woman is, being feminine and wearing a dress) in order to be treat the way they wish to be, this is in itself fucking wrong.

she would rather go down the route of making 'safe spaces' for transpeople an addition to how things are now, rather than imposing herself onto womens current safe spaces

I can only hope that more trans women think like that. I think anybody who actually shows any empathy for women (which must surely be a prerequisite for "living as a woman" (whatever that means)) thinks this way. Those that are unable to get this very basic thing are the ones that demand womanhood.

nd I find it disgusting that something such as 'she presented androgenously wearing jeans and t-shirt' would be used in anyway in something such as this

They do record in their reports how 'you present'

I might have come out with a lot of stuff I have come across on here and what I believe anyway.

I totally agree. I think it's totally down to circumstances whether someone is doing the same thing but unfortunately I have the same reaction. However, I think the main issue is whether someone is trying to shut someone up by mentioning in an argument that what they are talking about makes them suicidal. I think that's abusive. It's not appropriate to control people in that way.

the NHS understand trans issues as nothing more than gender sterotypes, which in itself is rather worrying.

Yes! absolutely.

At my most recent appointment at the GIC I thought I'd push the boundaries a bit by saying that I'm not delusional. I don't think that we are actually female. It went down like a lead balloon and I was told that Transwomen are women. I thought I was going to get kicked out.

Sorry that was to Helen.

I think that's abusive. It's not appropriate to control people in that way.

Oh god yes if it's intentional then absolutely

At my most recent appointment at the GIC I thought I'd push the boundaries a bit by saying that I'm not delusional

You might have said this elsewhere but I've skipped a lot of this thread and I did not take part in the other.

What are you hoping to get from the GIC? Is it HRT? Surgery? And if so, why?

(I know - I'm asking a TW questions. Kind of ironic)

They do record in their reports how 'you present'

That is...unacceptable to me. I know you can do nothing about that but this actually makes me quite angry that the NHS would class something such as how you dress as an indication of ANYTHING to do with being transsexual. This view is damaging. Very damaging. It is basically saying...gender stereotypes are totally correct and infact DO define your sex.

I understand that this was the correct decision for you personally. But I still feel disheartened by your post that comes across slightly as, you simply said the right things to get the result you personally needed. This shouldn't have to be done like this. You know in your head you are a woman. That is great and I am glad you are so sure of it and have got the result you so obviously needed. But this worries me in..if other people aren't totally sure that their..'problems' would be solved by transitioning..they would be pigeonholed and pushed in that direction based on not much more than gender-stereotypes.

Apologies if any of that didn't come across right. I am genuinely happy for you that you are now comfortable in your own skin. I just disagree with the approach it appears the NHS has towards this kind of thing.

At my most recent appointment at the GIC I thought I'd push the boundaries a bit by saying that I'm not delusional. I don't think that we are actually female. It went down like a lead balloon and I was told that Transwomen are women. I thought I was going to get kicked out.

I find that pretty shocking TBH...