Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

TransAgenda BullShit: The I am Spartacus Thread

1000 replies

OscarDeLaYenta · 25/08/2016 19:17

Post deleted by MNHQ as it broke our Talk Guidelines

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
WrongTrouser · 27/08/2016 14:55

I am WrongTrouser

I believe adults who were born with a penis are men. I support anyone's right to live the way they wish as long as they are not damaging anyone else by doing so.

I agree with the OP and many of the other eloquent and articulate pps.

It seems that men transition to being transwomen for many different reasons and in many different ways so it is really complex and difficult.

However there seems to be little doubt that for some men the reason is autogynephilia.

As autogynephilia is an aspect of male sexuality, and at least some of the more radical transactivism appears to stem from autogynephilic men, the definition of womanhood and the boundaries of what women can discuss are being changed to accommodate an aspect of male sexuality, which is clearly a nonsense.

I hope MN considers this issue carefully. People need to be able to speak the truth. The definition of a woman and the parameters of what and how women can discuss their lives and needs should not be changed to suit the wishes of a small number of men. Men should not be able to silence women just by claiming to be a woman.

I believe in being courteous to people who are courteous to me and others. It is courteous to use the pronouns people prefer. However I see no need to be courteous to someone who uses the slur "cuntscum" to a woman so would not refer to the person who calls himself Ada Wells as she.

It's interesting to think what the reaction would be if a white person took the name of a black activist and then started publically hurling racist epithets at black people. I don't think we would have to wait until they started inciting violence for action to be taken against them by a public organisation they represented.

MsHeffalump · 27/08/2016 14:58

I'm Spartacus, and I believe in Cote's dictionary. I still haven't worked out how so many people managed to skip modern languages at school: gender is masculine or feminine or neuter (and randomly assigned bonkers to boot). We've spent decades trying to break the link between femininity and womanhood, because our existence as female human beings is not and should not be dependent on our adherence to socially determined markers of femininity. And now suddenly we're expected to swallow the idea that those markers are what make us female... I have no words to express the extent of my WTAF-feelz.

And I want to know why we can't talk about autogynephilia too. I know it exists. I've spoken to an autogynephiliac of my intimate acquaintance, about the fetish, where it comes from, how it works. I don't see it as necessarily appropriative / offensive / damaging to women, though all too often it is. I'd like to discuss this with other women, other feminists. Am I not allowed to do so?

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 27/08/2016 15:05

WrongTrouser
It's interesting to think what the reaction would be if a white person took the name of a black activist and then started publically hurling racist epithets at black people. I don't think we would have to wait until they started inciting violence for action to be taken against them by a public organisation they represented.

Quite. Or starting calling them names and citing discrimination if (when) the black community didn't accept them as black or of the black culture

nemno · 27/08/2016 15:14

Please ban me too if this is a site where women cannot state that MtT is a subset of men and WtT a subset of women.

reallyanotherone · 27/08/2016 15:16

XX (and XXX, X0) = female;
XY (and XYY, XXY) = male.

Unless it's androgen insensitivity when XY= externally female. Friend of mine's wee girl had it, they only realised when she didn't start puberty.

I agree with those who say TS are rebuilding gender stereotypes. Feeding into the ideas that boys and girls are different, and separate.

mirandayardley · 27/08/2016 15:37

I've written a brief post explaining what autogynephilia is on the 'This is bullshit thread #2' here.

I remain Spartacus.

airforsharon · 27/08/2016 16:30

I am Polly.

Penis owner = a woman MY ARSE

NickiFury I'd be interested in joining the FB group please

slithytove · 27/08/2016 17:21

I am slithytove

A man cannot become a woman, no matter what he does to himself (including medical and surgical procedures he may undergo), and no matter how he chooses to present himself (including his manner of dress, hairstyle, 'mannerisms', name and preferred pronouns).
Equally, a woman cannot become a man, no matter what she does to herself.

I shall not deviate from this position. To do so would be insanity.

I shall conduct myself politely and with the respect that individuals are due simply by virtue of them being human beings.

I deplore the oppression of any individual on the basis of how they present themselves in public or in private. I support the right of adult MTT and FTT to make whatever changes they wish to their bodies and to present themselves however they wish. I oppose any discrimination such individuals may face. MTT and FTT may face particular difficulties, e.g. with regard to accessing appropriate and sensitively delivered healthcare, and I fully support their rights to obtain the services that they require on an equal footing with any other person.

D'ya geddit, MNHQ? I am really not a bigot and am really not a transphobe.

BUT MTT are NOT women. And FTT are NOT men.

If on the basis of this, you wish to ban me, so be it

OhGodWhatTheHellNow · 27/08/2016 18:00

I have nothing to add to what has been said up-thread, other than support.

I am OhGodSpartacus

horseygeorgie1 · 27/08/2016 18:04

Is there a FB group? Did I miss that?

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 27/08/2016 18:06

I just found out today in the Guardian that Ian McEwan apologised for saying 'call m old fashioned but I think most people with penises are men' after howls from trans activists! FFS.

I call MASSIVE BULLSHIT on this nonsense.

HubrisComicGhoul · 27/08/2016 18:07

I am Hubris. I am Spartacus.

Men are human adult males and women and human adult females. This is biological reality and is not changed because you aren't comfortable in your body.

Respecting pronouns is a dangerous game that allows violent crime committed by men to be registered as committed by women. It allows the media to report that "women" are being sent to male prisons, without mentioning that the "woman" in question has a functioning penis that they could use to rape and impregnate female inmates.

I believe that this is the difference between identity and social politics. On an individual basis we may be happy to refer to a particular trans-woman that we know as she, but doing so means that we have to extend the same courtesy to everyone who identifies as a woman, even if they are violent misogynistic men.

Mumsnet need to consider the long term implications before making a decision on this.

Deeppansexual · 27/08/2016 18:08

I'm Deeppan and I'm Spartacus.

Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and sex is a binary.

Even intersex people are either male or female.

You cannot change your sex.

There is no such thing as 'brain sex'. Read Cordelia Fine.

You have a sex and you have a personality. That is all.

Biological women have the right to assemble together without men and without trans women. Women need sex segregated spaces for our safety and protection.

You cannot self-define as a woman. You either are or you aren't a female.

Trans women are not women. They are men. They may be deeply unhappy and wholly pitiable and absolutely deserving of respect and care, but they are not women. They did not survive a girlhood. They survived a boyhood. They are men.

The unthinking, undiscriminating surgical and medical transing of children is child abuse. Transing children sterilises them. Transing children denies them their puberty, which is a difficult but necessary time. Transing children serves the agenda of pedophiles.

microferret · 27/08/2016 18:09

I am microferret.

I know that human beings are a sexually dimorphic species, apart from a tiny percentage of intersex people.

I know that "ladybrain" is a myth, which has been used to treat women as second-class citizens for millenia.

I reject any attempt to suggest that women, a historically and currently oppressed class of people, are "privileged" just because they have accepted the reality of their biology.

I believe that all individuals are entitled to respect, kindness, and the freedom to present and behave as they choose, as long as they are harming nobody. I do not think that any individual is entitled to force the entire world to redefine objective reality or to believe obvious untruths for the purpose of their own personal identity validation.

I believe that trans ideology is regressive, not progressive, a system that seeks to impose more labels, not free individuals from them. And I can think of no more conservative a practice than the silencing of biological females.

microferret · 27/08/2016 18:12

waves at mirandayardley Smile

Thanks for all that you do, it is much appreciated Flowers

MsHaveNaiceHam · 27/08/2016 18:19

I am Spartacus.

I am not articulate enough nor do I know enough about this topic to talk about it. But I have learned so much from this thread...and it has defined the unease that I have about trans issues.

Why is the trans version of womanhood always splendidly made up with clingy dress, revealing neckline and exaggerated 'female' body language.
I'm a woman and that's not me.

How do men "know" that they feel like a woman...what does that mean. I am a woman but I don't know how women feel...I just know how one woman (me) feels.
It's the definition of manhood that needs to expand not the category of womanhood.

God that really is not well explained but want to add my support...

SwivelOnYourRedChair · 27/08/2016 18:25

I am Swivel and I am Spatacus.

^A man cannot become a woman, no matter what he does to himself (including medical and surgical procedures he may undergo), and no matter how he chooses to present himself (including his manner of dress, hairstyle, 'mannerisms', name and preferred pronouns).
Equally, a woman cannot become a man, no matter what she does to herself.^

I shall not deviate from this position. To do so would be insanity.

I shall conduct myself politely and with the respect that individuals are due simply by virtue of them being human beings.

I deplore the oppression of any individual on the basis of how they present themselves in public or in private. I support the right of adult MTT and FTT to make whatever changes they wish to their bodies and to present themselves however they wish. I oppose any discrimination such individuals may face. MTT and FTT may face particular difficulties, e.g. with regard to accessing appropriate and sensitively delivered healthcare, and I fully support their rights to obtain the services that they require on an equal footing with any other person.

D'ya geddit, MNHQ? I am really not a bigot and am really not a transphobe.

BUT MTT are NOT women. And FTT are NOT men.

If on the basis of this, you wish to ban me, so be it

^^^ This a million times over.

paddypants13 · 27/08/2016 18:41

I've already done my I am Spartacus post above I'm just back on to say to NickiFury that I have pm'd you about the FB group. ( Not sure I sent the message correctly, am new to pming. Would be funny if I am now banned after being on this thread. Grin

Just in case, I am Paddypants13 and I am Spartacus. You can ban me from MM but the truth is still the truth.

Deeppansexual · 27/08/2016 19:46

This is a great resource for gendercritical people and parents.

4thwavenow.com/

Deeppansexual · 27/08/2016 19:47

MNHQ, are you going to delete all references to autgynephilia?

Deeppansexual · 27/08/2016 19:48

Can you explain how mentioning autogynephilia is against the guidelines?

Because otherwise it looks like you are against truth, against reason and against women.

cexuwaleozbu · 27/08/2016 20:11

I am Spartacus and this is all bullshit

Human beings are a sexually dimorphic species.

Unfortunately for a longlonglong time people with penises were expected to be good at fighting, physical labour and doing clever stuff like science, medicine, law and politics and people with vaginas were expected to be good at nurturing, looking fabulous, and being creative, musical, and graceful. That was all bullshit too.

Of course people with vaginas can be good at and enjoy and want to identify with stuff that was traditionally associated with the male gender. Of course people with penises can be good at and enjoy and want to identify with stuff that was traditionally associated with the female gender.

I fully respect the right for anyone of either sex to wear what they want, call themselves any name they wish and to refuse to conform to the gender stereotypes which are still rampant in our society.

I would LOVE IT if these gender stereotypes could be torn down and become recognised as the damaging bullshit they are.

Personally I don't have a problem with referring to someone as she/her if that is their choice even if they have XY chromosomes but whose vagina and/or absent penis is due to surgery, any more than if their shape was due to androgen insensitivity syndrome.

But the only accurate word we have for people who have vaginas is women. People who have penises are men and there is no such thing as a female penis. Lesbians are by definition women who by definition have vaginas and like having sex with other people with vaginas and are not being discriminatory for not wanting to have sex with someone who has a penis.

The accurate term in our language as it currently stands for a person with a penis who wants to have sex with people who have a vagina by putting their penis into that vagina is heterosexual man. If that doesn't work for you then by all means create a new term - language is constantly evolving and new words are created all the time but the words woman/women and lesbian are not appropriate to be purloined for this use as they are already in regular frequent use for meaning something else.

People with penises do not get the freedom to penetrate women-only spaces which are a hard-won necessity for women in a world still oppressed by bullshit gender-inequality, simply by declaring themselves female (even if only for that one occasion and with every intention to also be male whenever convenient). If they had the remotest understanding of what it is like to be a woman they would never expect or demand such a thing.

The fact that it seems to be preferable for gender-conforming men to agree to impose a redefinition of womanhood in response to these demands, so that old fashioned stereotypes of maleness can persist unchallenged, is also bullshit.

The controversy over the word autogynephilia is bullshit - there is nothing offensive about coining a word for a specific expression of sexual experience. No one is defined solely by one specific thing that sexually arouses them or has to be defined by a word that doesn't apply to them so if you are a person with a penis who isn't sexually aroused by imagining yourself as having a feminine body shape then the word doesn't apply to you and there's no need to be offended. if you are a person with a penis who is sexually aroused by imagining yourself as having a feminine body shape then the word is just translating this concept into Greek so can't possibly be offensive unless you have something against Greeks.

People continuing to state that autogynephilia doesn't exist in people with vaginas haven't quite grasped that this is stating the obvious as people with vaginas don't have to imagine themselves as having a feminine body shape. The opposite equivalent is autoandrophilia and this exists.

I am a woman. I am a scientist and a computer geek. I do not own any dresses, skirts, perfume or makeup. I am married to a man, we have a son who likes ballet and creative expression and played at breastfeeding his dolls when he was younger and also likes lego and spaceships and pretends that everything is a gun. I am also sexually attracted to women though not many people know this as my only two relationships in my life have been with men and have been monogamous - but I also get sexually aroused by imagining myself to have a penis and fantasise about having penetrative sex with both women and men. That doesn't make me a man. They are fantasies. They are not real.

I test as having a very strongly "male" brain. This is a facet of my aspergers syndrome/high functioning autism. That doesn't make me a man - the very concept of there being such a thing as a "male" brain is just another part of the gender-stereotype bullshit that can fuck right off. To adapt a phrase of Eddie Izzard I don't have a man's brain, I have my brain, it is in my head and thinks my thoughts and is part of my personality and I have XX chromosomes and am a woman. To say that a woman should be defined as "male" if she is logical, scientific and a bit crap at emotional connection is more fucking sexist bullshit. To say that a man should be defined as "female" if he likes fabulous clothes and makeup and has no interest in historically "masculine" pursuits is also more fucking sexist bullshit.

I also believe that all individuals are entitled to respect, kindness, and the freedom to present and behave as they choose, as long as they are harming nobody. I do not think that any individual is entitled to force the entire world to redefine objective reality or to believe obvious untruths for the purpose of their own personal identity validation.

I believe that trans ideology is seeking to impose more labels and more oppressive gender-sterotyping rather than freeing individuals from such things. Silencing of biological females, declaring that people with penises have a better understanding of what it is to be a woman than people with vaginas - that is bullshit and I am Spartacus.

I don't want to be banned but if Mumsnet is going to become a place where you can only belong if you swallow the bullshit then I will find a forum that allows me to choose to reject these lies.

Elemental · 27/08/2016 20:17

I am Elemental and I am adding my voice to the thread. I don't have a problem with calling people by their chosen pronouns and I don't have a problem with the way anyone wants to live their lives. But while I may be ok with calling a person with a penis "she" if it helps them, I do not in any way support them trampling over women's hard won rights, taking over their safe spaces and insulting women by calling them terms they would never call themselves (an incontrovertible calling card of bigotry).

Biological women are in huge danger of being sidelined in the most insidious way, a way that we can't even talk about without being subject to calls of bigotry, by the bigots who seem to be able to shout louder, to their own benefit and the detriment of the female half if the population. It's depressing that the second class status of women is being emphasised yet again by the way in which this is being allowed to happen without challenge.

Deeppansexual · 27/08/2016 20:35

cexuwaleozbu

Eddie Izzard is now on record as having said "I am a transgender guy" and also “I've got boy genetics and girl genetics".

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 27/08/2016 20:37

Eddie Izzard also said the girl genetics explain why he likes shoes.

It's that simple apparently.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread