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TransAgenda BullShit: The I am Spartacus Thread

5 replies

OscarDeLaYenta · 25/08/2016 19:17

Post deleted by MNHQ as it broke our Talk Guidelines

PresidentOliviaMumsnet · 25/08/2016 22:44

@Waltermittythesequel

Nothing from HQ?

Evening all
Thanks for all your posts.
To clarify - we have long been for free speech and want to keep the conversation flowing.

We're also aware that because there are so many issues here some of which are only just emerging that we're not always gonna make the right call on every single thread - though rest assured we work bloody hard trying to do so.

We ask for your patience and understanding as we strike the right balance.

This is probably not going to be the overnight answer you're wanting not least because it being the school summer hols, several MNHQers are in areas with dodgy wifi and not screenside in the way that they might usually be, but we will be addressing this in the coming weeks.

Thanks in advance as ever
Peace and love

KateMumsnet · 26/08/2016 09:50

Hi all

As you know, we generally aim to let the conversation flow, and keep intervention to a minimum.

We do, however, usually delete posts which deliberately use a pronoun which an individual has expressly rejected; apart from anything else, we don't think it's really in the spirit of MN.

That said, we know that lots of you want to discuss the differences between biological sex and gender identity, and we don't wish to shut that debate down. We're trying to steer a sensible course in what is a rapidly shifting landscape, and one way for us to do this is to take our lead from mainstream scientific thinking. This means, for example, that we won't usually remove posts which state that sex is determined by chromosomes, and so forth, unless they otherwise break our talk guidelines. As ever we'll delete posts which are goady, deliberately inflammatory or a personal attack - one recent thread, for example, was deleted because we felt that one poster was getting a particularly rough time.

We're not always going to get it right though: these are complex issues and our thinking is evolving with everyone else's. What we all want is a forum where no-one feels belittled or silenced - but that's actually quite difficult to achieve, and you're going to have to bear with us while we work out how to keep everything in balance.

Thanks for letting us have your thoughts though - a few of us are on our family hols at the mo and beyond easy reach of the internet, but please do continue to feed back your views.

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 30/08/2016 21:08

Hello all

Thanks for all your input on this - we've been listening and thinking hard.

Couple of quick points to clear up: it's actually not the case that people have been banned solely for misgendering - it will have been part of a broader discussion here about whether that poster is able to stick to the rules generally.

We must admit to being slightly taken aback at being cast, by some, as the evil slave-baiting Roman republic in this Grin - as lots of you have pointed out, Mumsnet remains one of the few places where these issues can be discussed at all. It would have been much, much easier (both in terms of the resource and the toll on our moderators' sanity!) to shut down the debate as others have done, but instead we are working hard to find a realistic balance between free speech and being a space which welcomes everyone.

From our perspective, the whole issue is pretty much covered by our Talk Guidelines. If people are using sex-at-birth pronouns to provoke, inflame, or belittle, then that's against the rules and will usually have to go. If it happens as part of an otherwise broadly respectful (even if heated) discussion, we look at it in that context and take a view.

Some of you have pointed out a disjunct between allowing posts which mirror mainstream scientific thinking, while asking MNers not to describe a trans woman as 'he'. We can see your point on this,and also accept that there is a fair amount of dodgy stuff on the trans side that can rightly be described as anti-feminist and regressive - but what we'd ask you to think about is the impact on the parent who's not an activist, and likely isn't even posting, but whose adult child is transitioning, or who is doing so themselves. Would they feel belittled, mocked or attacked? Would they think Mumsnet was not for them? If so, we're going to have to remove it. It's a fudge, but it's the best we can do at this stage.

In all but the most extreme headline-grabbing cases, we do think it's possible to debate the core principles without referring to individuals in a way which will cause hurt. Most of you have said that when talking to a trans person face-to-face you wouldn't insist on using birth pronouns or names - and generally, on this and other issues, we encourage people to treat others with the same courtesy they'd use in real life. For every MNer who posts on a thread there are likely to be ten who are lurking - statistically, some of those will be trans or love someone who is, and we need to take account of them too.

We hope that makes our thinking a bit clearer overall. Do continue to tell us your thoughts - it's probably unrealistic to think that this issue will be quickly resolved here or across society as a whole, but it would be brilliant if MN could be part of the solution, we think.

MNHQ

KateMumsnet · 30/08/2016 21:29

KatieMN - just to be clear, is this MN's full response to all the various issues that have been flagged over the last week or so?

For now yes; it addresses the issue that has come up most frequently we think. But we'll certainly continue to listen and think.

Also, are you going to delete posts containing the word cis since plenty of us find it derogatory?

It seems sensible to apply the same rule of thumb to 'cis' - so where it's used pointedly to inflame/provoke etc, we'd delete it.

I'm afraid I've got to get my kids to bed now so probably won't be back again tonight - but as we said we'll continue to read your points and discuss them here.

Thanks all.

KateMumsnet · 30/08/2016 21:33

and it doesn't explain why posts about autogynephila are consistency zapped.

Sorry, meant to deal with this before standing down - as far as I know we've deleted one post about autogynephilia, because it implied that this was what motivated most or all trans women. We also deleted a subsequent post which quoted the first.

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