What is Mumsnets definition of transphobia?

[TheRealPosieParker]

That's it really.

Mine would be hate or violence against trans people. Mine would not be "misgendering" or acknowledging transwomen are male and that they are not women.

[EmpressOfTheSevenOceans]

Good luck with your surgery, Ego.

[Thefitfatty]

I try not to get involved in trans threads, but I do report them when I see them because within a couple of posts they usually have descended into utter horridness.

While I'm primarily attracted to men and I have a vagina i can't say that defines me or that I've ever particularly understood women. If someone born with a penis identifies with my biological gender more than I do, good for them. I don't care who pees or poos next to me because I'm not so fucking foolish as to believe that "women's spaces" are safe. They never have been, they never will be until the day we design doors that will only open for ovaries.

I think, much like is someone were to post that being gay is un-natural or being a particular race is inferior, expressing doubt or disbelief that a trans person is who they say they are is transphobic. Mumsnet either has to come out and fully support trans individuals or not. History will eventually show them if they chose correctly.

[AlistairSim]

Being a dick to someone purely because they are trans is transphobic, pointing out a biological fact isn't, surely?

[Thefitfatty]

Depends what you mean by biological "fact". There are people with the xx chromosomes who have no vagina, there are ones with both rudimentary penises and vaginas, there are ones with xxy with full blown penises but no testosterone.

Biology is a wonderful and complicated thing, and which gender (if either) you identify with is even more complicated.

At the end of the day, the only biological certainty is that we all need to pee...

[OlennasWimple]

Yeah, I felt really bad when I realized (due to time zone differences) that I had inadvertently started a thread in the middle of the night, giving MNHQ something unpleasant to wake up...

OP - commenting on someone's "unsuitable attire" at a wedding may well be fat shaming, or misogyny. (Not sure about someone dressed as a scarecrow - there's a thread I'm S&B about someone going to a wedding with a "non-boring" dress code though...)

[AlistairSim]

You're so right, Thefit, I have a friend who was born without a right foot so this must mean the human race is not bipedal. I hadn't realised.

[Thefitfatty]

Well, that would certainly be an example of how there are no biological certainties. Thank you for bringing that one up. In the future, When we develop these wonderful doors that only open for specific body parts, we will have to make sure that two feet aren't a requirement (unless we want to start defining the human race as definitely needing two feet and those with one foot are only pretending and trying to invade our two footed space)

[VestalVirgin]

" It is merely fact. " well likewise it might be 'merely fact' that a woman is obese or a bit butch or really ugly but it would be rude to keep shouting about it , wouldnt it?

Well, most obese women don't behave in a way that makes it necessary to point out they are obese.
If an obese woman asked whether she could borrow my clothes, I would point out that they wouldn't fit her, because of the phyiscal reality of her body.

Thing is, that doesn't happen. Likewise with ugly women - they tend not to take part in beauty competitions.

[Thefitfatty]

And if an "ugly" woman did sign up for a beauty competition?

[PortiaCastis]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[Thefitfatty]

End of the day gender is a social construct, biology is...biology, a genetics number game at best, and major feminist issues like rape culture and pay differences are based on stereotypes and upbringing. So... Shouldn't we embrace people who feel they don't fit the gender shit show they were born to? Surely embracing transgender is embracing the move toward a unified gender? With equal pay and opportunity?

[glenthebattleostrich]

Thefitfatty, you do realise that we are discussing more than toilets when we discuss women's spaces. Women have been raped in Canada because refuges couldn't turn away a person claiming to be trans.

Quite frankly I don't care how people present themselves to the world. We need a more open and tolerant society. I do however fail to understand why some trans people can't celebrate their trans status. Trans Women are different t o women and that's ok. Your fight for recognition is different to mine as a woman and it should be celebrated.

I refuse to be defined by feelz, I remain gender critical. I don't agree we have lady brains and boy brains. And I don't believe you can't change biology. If that make me transphobic then so be it.

[OlennasWimple]

Well, every year people enter Britain's Got Talent even though they really don't. Sometimes the judges are quite kind in telling them that they haven't got what it takes. If the person continues in their delusions or is rude, the judges are rude back

Not saying we should use BGT as some kind of social touchstone however...

[Thefitfatty]

Women have been raped in Canada for lots of reasons...I should know I am a woman who was raped in Canada. I also refuse to be defined by "feels" as you so "intelligently" write it and prefer to be defined by far more critical things like hormones, genetics and psychology. Which, basically, leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

[Thefitfatty]

Today 20:22 Ouriana

There is a difference between embracing transgender, and the erosion of womens rights.

I would fully support anyones right to live as the gender they relate too, however there are biological differences between male and female and to ignore these is to ignore womens rights.

Should a vunerable woman in a prison or a refuge have to share a safe, female only space with someone who has a penis?

Should a female athelete have to compete in a female only event with someone who has a distinct biological advantage due to being born male?

Should a vulnerable woman have to share space with a violent woman? Should a vulnerable man have to share space with a violent man? The penis issue is a red herring here. A vulnerable female (or male) has more to fear from someone of their own "biology" in these situations than they do a trans person.

[BertrandRussell]

"A vulnerable female (or male) has more to fear from someone of their own "biology" in these situations than they do a trans person."

Really? A woman who has been raped would, I imagine find it very difficult to share a space with a person with a penis, even if that person is completely unthreatening. And I don't think she should have to.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

Perhaps we could save this for another thread, one that's actually about trans-in-general? Rather than derail this one?

[Thefitfatty]

Well I've been raped, yet somehow manage to interact with people with penises every day. Where is this fantastical land of no penises of which you speak?

[Thefitfatty]

ouriana you're right. Statistically that is incorrect. Because trans women actually experience the highest level of rape in prison, and the highest rates of domestic violence and murder in general.

[Thefitfatty]

So it's only trans women raping female refugees?

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

Fit, it's starting to look like you are purposely derailing

[BertrandRussell]

Sorry, yes, you're right.

Transphobia is a tricky issue and different from other "isms" because nobody can being any doubt whether sombody is black or not, for example.

But I have been called transphobic because I will not use "cis". And my priority is the protection of women's rights and safety, and sometimes that means not being as delicate spoken as I would like to be. And I am not ashamed of that. Trains people should be comfortable, safe and respected, but not at the expense of comfort and safety of other people.