What is Mumsnets definition of transphobia?

[TheRealPosieParker]

That's it really.

Mine would be hate or violence against trans people. Mine would not be "misgendering" or acknowledging transwomen are male and that they are not women.

[BertrandRussell]

You tell me what I've said that you think is transphobic. Just tell me. Don't do the playground "Well, if you don't know, then I'm not going to tell you....."

[Notwhatiexpected]

Ego:

just looking for your perspective.

If I understand correctly, you are a Transwomen who has elected to have surgery. Brilliant, well done. I love that you are on MN.

My husband is an abusive weekend "sissy Crossdresser" (his definition) who has lied to me about his fetish for 17 years, tried to bully me into cuckolding, called me bigoted, and has, in my opinion a very mucked up option if what a woman "should be".

How do you feel, as a Transwomen, being lumped together, in terminology only obviously, with him? He also describes himself as Trans.

If I were you, I woul be blooming raging (can you swear on MN?)

Can you see why men like him are causing the problems for Transwomen like you? That being told we have to accommodate his sexual needs is offensive to me?

[Notwhatiexpected]

Ps, how do you tag someone in MN? So they know you have directed a question at them? Xx

[GipsyDanger]

Who exactly are you trying to convince here, me or you? Methinks she protests too much

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

Mn rules as they stand say posies "tw are adult males" doesn't break talk guidelines. It is factual and not aimed at one person with the intent to hurt. So, that's why 24 hours later it's still there.

Now if they change their rules, that's another kettle of fish. But as it stands, no problem. So, perhaps all the people shouting about transphobic TERF cis scum (paraphrased) could bear that in mind? No? Thought not.

[BertrandRussell]

"Who exactly are you trying to convince here, me or you? Methinks she protests too much"

Oh, right. So you don't actually want to have a proper conversation. You just want to snipe from the sidelines. What a waste of fucking time.

[SuburbanRhonda]

Why don't you - why don't you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you're afraid to.

What the fuck are you going on about?

[Notwhatiexpected]

Ego, thank you, and good point regarding the direction of this thread.

But I don't think we can discuss any Trans/transphobia related issues, without properly understanding what we are talking about, the root of the issue.

To me, transphobia is generated because silly men with fetishes are behaving piss poorly, and Transwomen are being confused with them. Without their mysogonistic behaviour, I don't think there would be an issue.

[BertrandRussell]

"Why don't you - why don't you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you're afraid to.

What the fuck are you going on about?"

They are accusing me of transphobia. I would very much like them to report my transphobic posts to Mumsnet.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

As I said Bert, unfounded accusations of bigotry are should be a personal attack, so you should report theirs too...

[VashtaNerada]

Not read the whole thread because it's painful but fuck I hate these threads. Some posters on MN are fucking horrible to trans people. You can't demand to not be called cis and at the same time deny trans people's rights to choose their own pronouns. There is a difference between clinical accuracy and kindness and on this issue I choose kindness.
And as for the repeated assertions (not just on this thread but on others too) that trans people don't "pass" there are loads that do! You just don't know who they are
Ego, best of luck with your surgery.

[GipsyDanger]

Do what you wish, I don't have anything to prove, or disprove, in this case. You will not change my mind or I yours, the difference is I accept people for who they are, and that makes me happy.

[BertrandRussell]

You have accused me of transphobia. Please will you specify.

[BertrandRussell]

"You can't demand to not be called cis and at the same time deny trans people's rights to choose their own pronouns"

Who is denying transpeople's right to their own pronouns?

[VashtaNerada]

Some earlier posters were calling transwomen men Bertrand so I suppose what I meant was more along the lines of "I will respect your right not to be called cis but I also expect you to respect Caitlyn Jenner (or whoever) and not call them by their previous name or pronoun".

[VestalVirgin]

To me, transphobia is generated because silly men with fetishes are behaving piss poorly, and Transwomen are being confused with them. Without their mysogonistic behaviour, I don't think there would be an issue.

At this point in time, I am not sure we can even say that "transwomen are confused with them". Because "transwoman" is a label used by about any male who has ever felt a desire to wear high heels. And it is often impossible to tell the motivations behind this labeling.
Unless you make gender-surgery the requirement for a true transwoman, there isn't really a way to tell the difference. (And of course, requiring surgery as a condition for access to female spaces will get you labeled as transphobic, too ...)

Besides, one is accused of transphobia just for stating that males are not, and can never become, women. That is not caused by the fetishists, it is just a fact of biology. Humans are not clownfish, and therefore incapable of changing sex.

The fact that many women do not want males, regardless of gender identity, in female spaces, is not only caused by fetishists (though those are certainly one of the main reasons we don't want men in the women's loo), but also by the fact that males are socialised in a certain way, and will behave in a certain way, and their gender identity does not change that.

[IonaMumsnet]

I think MNHQ probably sit in the corner and swear a lot when another trans thread comes up as they know there are going to be a lot of reports.

You may say that, Ego. But we could not possibly comment...

Evening folks,

As you may or may not know, there have been many and various threads on what constitutes transphobia over the last couple of years on Mumsnet and our policy hasn't really changed in recent months. We don't have a hard and fast 'definition' of what we feel transphobia is. We've always said that obviously it's not something we are experts in, where other forums are, and it's a subject that is in constant flux and developing almost all the time. So we try to apply common sense and perhaps the way we deal with transphobia develops with the discussions about it on threads. For that reason we have encouraged debate as much as possible and it has often been an informative journey.

In general, we apply the same rules as we do to all posts that are reported. We ask that everyone on Mumsnet is respectful in the way they post and of other posters' points of view. If we feel someone is being personally attacked (whether that be in transphobic way, a racist way, or just a general being an asshat way) we will delete it.

In terms of misgendering, which often comes up, we again go by the rule of thumb that if, for example, a celebrity who was male had just come out as a (trans)woman, we wouldn't wave the banhammer at everyone who accidentally said 'he' for a while after. But if we felt they were misgendering deliberately in order to cause offence, we would. Same goes for general discussion about the whole issue. Questions about gender and biology, if they are meant in the spirit of polite and interested discussion, we would leave to stand. Comments about 'blokes in dresses' and that sort of thing, we would take issue with.

In general we just think it's nice to be nice, really.

Hope that explains our position a bit.

[BeyondVulvaResistance]

👍 🍸🍸

won't comment on the female socialisation/"be nice" angle

[BertrandRussell]

So what about accusations of transphobia? Like the suggestion that not wanting to use the term "cis" is transphobic?

[BertrandRussell]

And why do women have to "be nice"?

[BertrandRussell]

(That's a rhetorical question, by the way)