should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

[thedevilinmyshoes]

I rarely venture beyond my narrow range of interests on MN these days so I don't know if it happens a lot, or if a similar level of hatred is extended to other groups, but what I saw tonight was sinister (particularly against the current backdrop of a surge in antisemitic crime in UK). I wondered if we had an agreed definition of what constitutes antisemitism or if people feel the issue is covered and handled well enough within the existing guidelines.

I remember reading an article (probably in the Fail) about so called "Beckys". This was back in the late 1980s.

From what I remember, the term was used to describe young women from North London who were Jewish and from comfortable, close knit, middle class families.

Mind you, there were quite a few names in those days to describe stereotyped people - Sharon and Kevin from Essex, etc.

"And having been here for over 14 yes I can honestly say I haven't seen much anti Semitism at all. I do find the Israel threads very difficult simply because people's views are very entrenched and sometimes I find my mouth dropping open at the injustice of accusations or views attached . Whilst debating a political situation is fine these threads do sometime turn a bit sinister and it is very easy for an antisemit to hide in an anti israel cloak and start usimg more questionable language and arguments as a debate goes on particularly where there is an imbalance of opinion and no challengers."

Yes, this is my perspective too. Of course it's possible to strongly oppose Israel's military actions without being antisemitic, but the truth is that plenty of anti-Zionists conflate this, with varying degrees of self-knowledge.

I think this of both the real (UK) world, and mumsnet.

"MN has quite a few anti-religious posters and some will seize upon any discussion to "other" those with faith."

1. There is nothing wrong with being anti religion
2. Religion should not be used as an excuse/explanation for doing something that in any other context would be unacceptable.

Of course it's possible to strongly oppose Israel's military actions without being antisemitic, but the truth is that plenty of anti-Zionists conflate this, with varying degrees of self-knowledge."

Many Zionists use accusations of anti semitism as a means of shutting down debate and silencing any criticism of the behaviour of the Israeli government.

Wow, this is an unedifying read.

Op- can mumsnet do more about anti semitism?
P - yeah but circumcision is wrong
P- I'm anti circumcision not anti Semitic
P- I've never seen it.
P- yeah and Israel is wrong
P - yeah Jews shouldn't have a homeland but I'm not anti Semitic.
Op- oh erm ok. I was talking in general but...

Op - can we talk about racism against, say, Japanese?
P- yeah but whaling is wrong
P - I'm anti whaling but I'm not anti japanese.
P- I've never seen it.

Anyways, to answer op, There was a thread where a poster said her daughters best friend told her that Isis were all Jews etc etc. the usual conspiracy shit. At least two or three posters thought op was over the top in her worry. They said this kind of thinking is widespread, no big deal.

On another thread, posters concerned about european Jews are dismissed- pah, it's not as bad as gaza.

Not direct anti semitism, and they werent deleted. However it does. indicate a certain mind-set. I've been on mumsnet a long time and I think it's new here but it reflects the new rise of anti semitism in the uk.

I doubt mumsnet can do much more really.

In rl, we need more mixing, education, outreach, hate speakers to be caught and punished.

Not direct anti semitism, and they werent deleted. However it does. indicate a certain mind set

Are you saying that opposing circumcision and to being critical of Israel, is antisemitic? Indications of a bigoted mindset? Hate speech?

Fucking hell I just gave some examples and they were nothing to do with circumcision or the Israeli military.

bertrand I think that's quite a good example of the entrenched mindset nell was referring to.

Obviously not all anti-Zionists are like that (NAAZALT?) but some anti-Zionism is undeniably a cover for anti-Seminitism. I find people's reluctance to acknowledge this rather odd.

Well fancy that - turns out I knew the word all along (having grown up in north west London with a lot of Jewish friends). I never knew it was considered so offensive but thanks to this thread I am enlightened.

I find it disturbing when people attribute perfectly legitimate political positions as indications of a 'certain mindset' ie a bigoted mindset.

Ok so saying Isis are Jews is a perfectly legitimate position now?

thank you for letting me know.

Diminishing fears of Jews in Europe is not bigoted at all?

Fascinating.

Just a quick response to the person upthread who asked me to expand.

Person in question grew up in a family with a gripe about losing family money to someone Jewish at the beginning of the 20th century. Person started a jeweller's shop and did very well. I've heard the story numerous times from family and they've blown it up into a tragedy that somehow directly affects them to this day.

Company person works for (family run manufacturer non Jewish, no Jewish employees 200 staff) has been bought by much larger manufacturer with global interests which just happens to have been founded by Jewish brothers 100 years ago.

Person in question casually drops remark about working for "The Jews" as from Monday and I was a bit WTF? at the comment, as out of character for said person to say something anti another group. Cue diatribe about above family story yet again and tells me lots in factory not especially pleased.

So I asked how many had handed in their resignations because they don't want to work for new company? Nobody, of course (because they're all "trapped" working to pay bills). Pointed out the difference between person living in society where they're politically free to move on if they don't like who they're working for and the many people around the world who aren't.

I think the point was that said person isn't deeply anti Jewish or any other faith but somehow felt they were ok expressing an anti Jewish point of view about things that happened a century ago which truly have no bearing on their life today and how very casually it was done. It makes me uncomfortable.

Said person has been reminded about the difference between freedom of expression and saying whatever you like, whenever you like without really thinking first.

I'm not sufficiently well educated to really comment further. This was just an example of what I've seen happening. To me, it's ignorant tarring with a broad brush.

"bertrand I think that's quite a good example of the entrenched mindset nell was referring to."

What- saying that some Zionists use accusations of antisemitiam to shut down debates about Israeli government policy? Are you saying that never happens?

"Ok so saying Isis are Jews is a perfectly legitimate position now?

thank you for letting me know.

Diminishing fears of Jews in Europe is not bigoted at all?

Fascinating."

Nope. And if anyone says such things they should be reported and deleted.

Ok so saying Isis are Jews is a perfectly legitimate position now?

And putting words in a person's mouth is a perfectly legitimate way to discuss freedom of speech?

The whole 'Isis are Jews' theory is obviously bonkers. I've never seen it on mumsnet but if it was posted I'm sure it would be robustly challenged.

Ubik quoted me and then said 'are you saying that opposing circumcision and being critical of Israel is anti Semitic'?

I want to know how she got that from my remarks.

The comments about Isis and Jews in Europe not having real issues still stand because, as I said, they were not directly anti Semitic. However, they indicate a certain mindset, yes.

"The comments about Isis and Jews in Europe not having real issues still stand because, as I said, they were not directly anti Semitic. However, they indicate a certain mindset, yes."

Well, as you reported them, they were anti Semitic, yes. Did you report the posts?

However, they indicate a certain mindset, yes.

Well, I think the Isis remark is anti-Semitic, and the latter incredibly distasteful at best if not anti-Semitic, implying as it does that an entire religion or ethnic group deserves a certain level of risk or suffering based on the actions of a government associated with that religion.

(I'm one of those rabid anti-religion atheists, by the way.)

But using phrases like 'a certain mindset' dodges the issue. What mindset exactly, if it isn't an anti-Semitic one?

Read what I said.
I said they weren't directly anti semitism.
I said they weren't deleted (I didn't report them)

It is an anti Semitic mindset, yes.

But the comments alone while horrible and stupid were not anti Semitic (in my view)

Helmet, the op wasn't talking in general. She said she had seen an instance of casual anti semitism that was sinister and breathtaking.

Her subsequent refusal to even hint at what it was left others to guess.

"It is an anti Semitic mindset, yes.

But the comments alone while horrible and stupid were not anti Semitic (in my view)"

So saying that ISIS is a Jewish organization is not anti Semitic in your view? Bloody hell- it certainly is in mine.

Yeah, Morris, that's true- I just think the guessing was a bit awkward!

Bertrand, the person who said Isis were Jews was a 7 yr old friend of the worried op.

But you said other posters agreed- I am now very baffled.

Can you give some very clear examples- with links if possible- to the anti semitism you see on mumsnet?