should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

[thedevilinmyshoes]

I rarely venture beyond my narrow range of interests on MN these days so I don't know if it happens a lot, or if a similar level of hatred is extended to other groups, but what I saw tonight was sinister (particularly against the current backdrop of a surge in antisemitic crime in UK). I wondered if we had an agreed definition of what constitutes antisemitism or if people feel the issue is covered and handled well enough within the existing guidelines.

Not caused by religion?
By what then?

Lobbyists and preassure groups are an integral part of our democracy Jassy. All seek to influence social policies and laws that apply to everyone. Sometimes they are successful, sometimes not. Ultimately it comes down to the elected government.

Do you propose to ban all these groups or just discriminate against the religious ones?

Not caused by religion?

Race, ethnicity, culture. From what I've seen, most anti-Semites know fuck all about the teachings of Judaism.

And of course the most notorious manifestation of anti-semitism was much more focused on who your granny was than what you believed.

I've been around a good while and I don't remember ever seeing Muslim posters being hounded for circumcising boys, whereas if you mention a brit things will invariably kick off - the vehemence of the posts is really striking.

I think there is a persistent double standard in the way Israel is discussed on here.

It's extremely naive to assume that anti-Zionist and anti-circumcision views don't sometimes overlap with anti-Semitism even if a poster asserts that they don't.

Anti-semitism is not just about stuff that is isolated to particular posts, or even particular posters. It's about the whole tenor of the discourse.

Lobbyists and preassure groups are an integral part of our democracy Jassy. All seek to influence social policies and laws that apply to everyone. Sometimes they are successful, sometimes not. Ultimately it comes down to the elected government.

Yes, thank you. I understand how lawmaking works. I was pointing out that examples of religious institutions working in the interests of diversity, rather than in the interests of 'their own', can often be pretty hard to find. That's their right, but it's not great for inclusion or diversity.

Do you propose to ban all these groups or just discriminate against the religious ones^

I don't propose to ban anyone, but it's an interesting straw man you've created there. Do you often feel the need to make up things people haven't said rather than discussing what they have?

I was simply pointing out that the statement that religion inherently enhances diversity was a pretty questionable one, at best.

I agree that people making their own choices is paramount. But I don't pretend that a choices people make are equal in terms of their impact on society. Some choices people make have a negative impact on either themselves or others. I defend their right to make those choices, within reason, but in doing so I can think the choice they are making isn't a great one, and that it has a net negative impact.

anti circumcision comments imo are not anti semitic. My sister got her two boys circumcised and she isn't jewish. I don't agree with her decision, does that make me anti semitic?

(I am part German too, that doesn't make me anti semitic either)

There is a long and shameful history of anti semitism in Europe- for all sorts of reasons, historical, cultural, racial. The whole Blood Libel thing. The fear of th unknown. The characterisation of Jews as clever and good at tricking people in business. A whole host of reasons. Most anti Semites now know nothing at all about Judaism, and are not themselves Christian- just racists.

"I've been around a good while and I don't remember ever seeing Muslim posters being hounded for circumcising boys, whereas if you mention a brit things will invariably kick off"

Have you ever seen a Muslim come on here and post about circumcision?

Certainly if I post about a brit I always make it clear that I am opposed to non medically required infant male circumcision whwtever the reason. In fact I find it slightly easier to understand why people might do it for religious/cultural reasons than the insane "hygiene" arguments used by others.

I've been around a good while and I don't remember ever seeing Muslim posters being hounded for circumcising boys, whereas if you mention a brit things will invariably kick off - the vehemence of the posts is really striking

I have, quite recently - a poster who described circumcision was accused of pushing people towards Isis. But it's a point well made, and I'm particularly and consistently surprised by the number of people who don't know that circumcision is also a Muslim practice.

This is going the way of the racism threads on here. I agree with devora. People should stop minimising and listen.

"I believe the world is a better place when people are free to chose."

People raised in a religion from a very young age are not all that free to choose, though, are they? That is why most people follow the religion of their parents. Very few people actively choose a religion.

I've just seen the OP.

As a Jewish person, my answer is - I have seen quite a bit of anti-semitism on Mumsnet.

I usually report it except when the whole thread is full of views so entrenched and ignorant, I can't bear to read on.

There is a massive amount of ignorance regarding Israel and having a brit (male circumcision) (e.g. comparing a brit to FGM) mostly from believing what one reads in the news.

But there's also ignorance, which is fully understandable, about how Jewish people feel when they read vitriolic anti-Israel and anti-circumcision comments.

I was simply pointing out that the statement that religion inherently enhances diversity was a pretty questionable one at best.

No one made such a statement. I said I prefered a world where people could chose. Do you often feel the need to make up things people haven't said than discussing what they have?

Oh, then I misunderstood your statement that:

Bert, you are suggesting that a world with less diversity would be better.

As you said it in response to Bertrand's suggestion that she'd prefer a world without religion, I took it as you saying that religion enhanced diversity somehow. If that's not what you meant, I apologise.

Sticks2, what ignorance have you perceived about Israel? So it's not true they're occupying land and creating an apartheid system?

Better all around when we own up to our mistakes, isn't it? (Unless you've found where I said I wanted to ban religion?)

And having checked, my response about influence on lawmaking etc - which you took as me advocating a ban? - was just as much in response to Moses' statement about religion promoting tolerance.

I think anti circumcision and anti semitism are barely ever related on this forum.

Posters are generally against circumcision and each thread on the subject is a two sided arguement with pro and anti debating (with hugely agressive undertones on both sides).

I do think that ignorance (in its literal sense) is to blame.

Both sides are unable to identify with the strong held beliefs of the opposing party (be they religious, cultural or moral).

The choice to circumcise (because it is a choice) is not made lightly. No parent would be blasé deciding this.
This practice comes of faith and worship and many other motivators.
I totally understand opposition and would always welcome debate.
A reason for venom towards a whole community?
No, and i'm positive that the majority on here would agree.

An example from earlier in the thread:

When i had my DS's, some people said to me - " Ooh, a boy! I don't envy you doing a bris - I wouldn't. And that's fine.

By contrast if someone writes: "Disgusting - how can you do that? - your sons will hate you for ever! I can never speak to a Jewish or Muslim woman because I am so horrified by the shocking mutilation carried out in the name of God" then I would see a measure of racism in this, as it is so ludicrously over the top.

If my friend told me she was going to mutilate her baby I would be horrified. I'm sorry if anyone finds that racist. I'd also be absolutely horrified if a Catholic friend refused to let her daughter have an abortion.

I've seen many posters say "Well its not anti-Semetic because americans do it too", I disagree though. I think its OK to disagree with/ dislike a practice done by a specific group. And I don't think its anti-Anything other than the specific practice they dislike.

It's the way society has been brainwashed to believe anything said against Jews is anti-Semetic. It's no secret who runs the world. It's Zionists. They own the media.

Surprisingly few have picked up on this. Anyone else like to tell us they've never seen antisemitism on MN?

Oh, and for those who suggested I was antisemitic for quoting the old saying, "Two Jews, three opinions", let me clarify that I was trying to point out, in a lighthearted way, that there is little risk of a group of Jews all agreeing with each other. It's a popular saying because Ashkenazi Jews believe that it is a cultural norm for our community to debate everything. But I think you knew that.

So just to be clear. Are there people who feel that feeling very strongly about non medically required male infant circumcision and expressing those feelings strongly is anti Semitic?

"It's the way society has been brainwashed to believe anything said against Jews is anti-Semetic. It's no secret who runs the world. It's Zionists. They own the media.

Surprisingly few have picked up on this. Anyone else like to tell us they've never seen antisemitism on MN?"

I actually considered reporting this. But I decided against because I thought she would be so thoroughly demolished that it would be mor effective to leave it.

Surprisingly few have picked up on this. Anyone else like to tell us they've never seen antisemitism on MN?

I have reported this and similar posts on this thread. But then I've never said I've never seen anti-semitism here.

I'm just trying to make the point that you cannot always assume a 'mindset' when someone makes a statement online.

If I was gentile and I made the same assertion, would I be antisemitic?