FWR split continued

[RebeccaMumsnet]

We have decided to start a new thread about this as the other thread was near capacity and taking a while to load.

Here is Justine's post from earlier on

We can give a Radical Feminism topic a go if that's what people want and see if it works. Obviously we need to be crystal clear that no one is obliged to post in one particular place and no one should feel excluded from any topic but we could test it out, and see if it helps resolve tensions. We'll do that in the next few days.

There are a couple of other things to think about as well.

First, those who come onto FWR to derail and inflame. We acknowledge that we have been too slow in the past to spot these posters for what they were. We're sorry about that and hope we're a lot quicker at dealing with them now. We're all for opinions but we do draw the line at posters whose only obvious intent is to goad.

And secondly, this idea that FWR can be an unwelcoming place to those who aren't following the 'party line'. Judging by posts on recent threads and by our inbox this is a view of a significant number of Mumsnetters and obviously that's not a healthy situation. Mumsnet is a place for discussion and for diverse opinion and it's the exchange of ideas and tolerance of differing opinions that makes it the board it is.

We do hope threads like this help to clear the air a bit and remind everyone that, whatever the differences of opinion, the FWR board will only ever be the stimulating, thought-provoking, enriching place we'd all like it to be if people feel that they can express themselves without being jumped on.

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts.

Btw . The reason I lurk is not fear of the fwr posters, but because I usually only get to MN in short 10 min bursts I can't keep up

Feminism/Women's Rights
Improper Feminism
Patriarchy/Misogyny

I'm very good at being improper at most things and I don't mind being corralled for the purpose.... now that came out wrong . But seriously I' be happy to post there, even if it suggested my credentials were unsound.

I suggested 'Feminist Theory' on the other thread but I like fair's suggestion better.

I have to say, as a lurker and occasional poster on FWR who is not a radfem or knowledgeable about feminist theory, that I am concerned that a particular view of FWR seems now to be becoming accepted as fact.

My experience is that, while some regular FWR posters remind me of career politicians (well versed in theory, trenchant, too willing to have confrontation) I would not agree that they alone are the problem and need to be roped off.

Plenty of people who complain about FWR have not behaved well on those boards themselves. Many loudly proclaim they are being attacked while enthusiastically kicking lumps out of other posters.

Which is why we do need to look at the functions of any new boards being suggested and how they would be used in practice. Re-naming simpliciter is not going to address the dysfunction.

Hello
Sorry not to have been posting on here more this evening, got interrupted by some puerile trolls elsewhere.
Thanks again for your suggestions - and do keep 'em coming.
MNHQ

As a mere man, I support,

Cafe ( never say no to a cuppa )
Support
Theory and Activism

I'm a bit wary about speaking from the "I" on threads like these, but just wanted to say something a bit more personal.

I came to MN because of a friend of mine sent me a link to an early FWR thread on an issue we had been discussing because she thought it might be of interest. And it was. And so was the rest of the board. I loved the exchange of ideas, the exploration of issues, the identifying of threads that ran through those otherwise unconnected posters' lives. There were posters who were widely read, long in the tooth in terms of feminist thinking, clear in their writing, generous with their knowledge and uncompromising in their positions. The latter confused me. They didn't couch their opinions in "I think" or "I believe", apologise for their beliefs or give ground to those who were writing posts who were not putting women at the forefront of their consideration when considering an issues from a feminist point of view. I found it quite scary and lurked for a long time before I posted. I still do lurk - I am quite introverted and am a watcher by nature until I know the lay of the land.

Those women taught me a lot and continue to do so. They encourage me to think, especially when I have a "Woah!" reaction to one of their posts. I did a lot of digging around, researching things like the Sexual Offences Act, so that I could understand and post knowledgeably on rape case threads. I started to take each "topic" in turn, so that I lurked on those threads on which I had little knowledge and read around what was being spoken about so that I could contribute in the future. Unfortunately, I was a little put out with comments on yet another of these "What on earth are we to do with the FRW board?" threads in the vein of "Some of them are obsessed with rape and abuse". No, that was just where my exploration was taking me. I couldn't learn it all in a week. I love that those posters were willing to engage with me, answer my questions and generally give pointers to blogs, books, and other further information. If it is the the general opinion that only rad fems did that, then shame on non-rad fems for not being equally generous.

I hate these threads. I am angry that the FWR board has turned into a playground for those who only post to disagree and get a rise out of other posters. I am sad that what was once a fertile ground for the exchange of ideas (if a little heated at times) has become the target of such vitriol. And I really resent that posters like me, who don't really address anyone in fear of being accused of attacking, have been polite and open in fear of being accused of being rude and unwelcoming and who simply want to exchange knowledge and ideas and question the status quo, are ignored in favour of bunfighting with, and goading, those who really are putting themselves out there to shine a light on the shit that is happening to women both in this country and the world over. And that those bunfighters rarely start threads on the board or post feminist rebuttals elsewhere on MN makes me start to question what they are all about. Even if you don't agree, at least have a retort that has some basis in feminism if you say that you are a feminist.

An Equality board seems like a sensible solution, given that is what many of the disgruntled say they are fighting for. Or, failing that, an ignore poster button.

wow, great post AyeRobot

Feminist Analysis is good, if Mumsnet don't want to put their names to acknowledging that Patriarchy/Misogyny exist.

Oh, I missed that. Where did they say that dittany?

Ok, another option... Leave fwr as it is and start an equalism board.

"I'm a bit wary about speaking from the "I" on threads like these, but just wanted to say something a bit more personal.

I came to MN because of a friend of mine sent me a link to an early FWR thread on an issue we had been discussing because she thought it might be of interest. And it was. And so was the rest of the board. I loved the exchange of ideas, the exploration of issues, the identifying of threads that ran through those otherwise unconnected posters' lives. There were posters who were widely read, long in the tooth in terms of feminist thinking, clear in their writing, generous with their knowledge and uncompromising in their positions. The latter confused me. They didn't couch their opinions in "I think" or "I believe", apologise for their beliefs or give ground to those who were writing posts who were not putting women at the forefront of their consideration when considering an issues from a feminist point of view. I found it quite scary and lurked for a long time before I posted. I still do lurk - I am quite introverted and am a watcher by nature until I know the lay of the land.

Those women taught me a lot and continue to do so. They encourage me to think, especially when I have a "Woah!" reaction to one of their posts. I did a lot of digging around, researching things like the Sexual Offences Act, so that I could understand and post knowledgeably on rape case threads. I started to take each "topic" in turn, so that I lurked on those threads on which I had little knowledge and read around what was being spoken about so that I could contribute in the future. Unfortunately, I was a little put out with comments on yet another of these "What on earth are we to do with the FRW board?" threads in the vein of "Some of them are obsessed with rape and abuse". No, that was just where my exploration was taking me. I couldn't learn it all in a week. I love that those posters were willing to engage with me, answer my questions and generally give pointers to blogs, books, and other further information. If it is the the general opinion that only rad fems did that, then shame on non-rad fems for not being equally generous.

I hate these threads. I am angry that the FWR board has turned into a playground for those who only post to disagree and get a rise out of other posters. I am sad that what was once a fertile ground for the exchange of ideas (if a little heated at times) has become the target of such vitriol. And I really resent that posters like me, who don't really address anyone in fear of being accused of attacking, have been polite and open in fear of being accused of being rude and unwelcoming and who simply want to exchange knowledge and ideas and question the status quo, are ignored in favour of bunfighting with, and goading, those who really are putting themselves out there to shine a light on the shit that is happening to women both in this country and the world over. And that those bunfighters rarely start threads on the board or post feminist rebuttals elsewhere on MN makes me start to question what they are all about. Even if you don't agree, at least have a retort that has some basis in feminism if you say that you are a feminist.

An Equality board seems like a sensible solution, given that is what many of the disgruntled say they are fighting for. Or, failing that, an ignore poster button."

Ayerobot, I liked your post but feminism isn't only for those who read and agree with feminist theory. It's wider than that, it encompasses all people who want to support women in being treated fairly, it's not just about theories put forward by the minority.

Everyone who wants to help women be treated fairly should be able to get involved irrespective of whether they have read leading feminist argument.

I didn't say that feminism is only for those who read and agree with feminist theory. I am more interested in feminist fact, tbh.

I said "at least have a retort that has some basis in feminism if you say that you are a feminist". I didn't include the "but women do it too" posters.

I am bemused by this every time it comes up. I hang out quite a lot on the FWR board and I'm a hardline liberal feminist. Nothing bad has ever happened to me on that board - I don't count disagreements that might well make me shout at my laptop as a 'bad' thing. I suppose it's possible that years of enjoying a good ruck with people whose opinions I despise has given me the skin of a rhinocerous and everyone else is being a wuss but it strikes me that the FWR board is simply not scary and dangerous at all. Different opinions won't kill you. If you disagree with someone, jump in and say so. But get over all this fucking whining about nastynasty radfems saying 'but I disagree' - Radfems don't beat people up* for disagreeing with them or send them DIAF PMs or any such. They just disagree.

*Well, apart from the attack on Chain Reaction but that was decades ago.

The point is people are still trying to exclude people rather than accept differences and work with it. We have to make do with what the situation is and accepting the status quo isn't working and maybe splitting the boards might not work but lets try to come up with some kind of mutal understanding. The main issue i see is that people gain and appreciate different things from the board. For example, some want to explore partriarchy, some want to explore kyriarchy and intersectionality. Some just want to speak about personal experience and some want to discuss feminist theory... We NEED to meet ALL these needs if possible without anyone feeling excluded...

The words theory and analysis convey different meaning.
Theory being generally accepted but untested and acknowledges differences of opinion, conflicting theories??????
Analysis implies we share a theory and we will use this social theory to analyse something.

I prefer theory over analysis because it makes clear that agreement isn't assumed or that one theoretical frame work is superior to another.

"I said "at least have a retort that has some basis in feminism if you say that you are a feminist". I didn't include the "but women do it too" posters."

Are you implying feminist theory there? I have opinions based on my own immediate circles experiences, are they relevant or do I have to read and quote leading feminists to make a valid point?

And yes, women are capable of some of the things men are blamed for in fwr. That's a fact and denying it is unrealistic IMO.

So explore, ES. Stop having digs. Stop making sweeping generalisations about people because they have a certain view about one topic. Heck, I bet you have me down as a rad fem. I don't even know if I am because I'm still figuring this stuff out. Let the discussion run free and stop the snideyness and the labelling. It's in your hands.

I'm extremely wary of anything titled 'support', feminist or otherwise. The relationships board - full of fantastic advice and unwavering support - has a specific warning informing posters that they are not experts on DV and that anyone suffering from it should contact the relevant places of support i.e. not Mumsnet.

The potential damage done to a real poster with real issues is too great.

And no, I'm not referencing any particular feminist theory. Unless you are assuming the feminism means we are all equal now and everyone should be judged and held accountable from that starting position, regardless of any wider context. Which is an odd kind of feminist stance.

I don't think it helps either side to make snide remarks - can hold my hands up and say I have done this.

It also doesn't help to use dramatic and emotive language to describe events here.

Before anyone jumps on me... I'm simply saying some issues that affect women emanate from women as well as men. Discrimination is a 'people problem' not just men versus women, abled versus disabled and white versus black etc... Many different people discrimate and focussing primarily on white males Ian helpful, IMO.

Everyone needs to take ownership for discrimation. We are all capable of it and can affect people with it. It's not white men who have this power to discrimate and harm.

Anyway, I can't remember if you have ever said you were a feminist, ES, so I am not sure whether it was you I was speaking about. It is those that say they are are feminist but insert stuff that doesn't start from a feminist position on a feminism board with other feminists involved in the discussion.

I liked SGB's post. I don't always agree with you, SGB, but I do recognise that you are coming from a thought out position feminism-wise. I think you rock on the relationships boards, but disagree on the porn/prostitution stuff and would love to explore that one day. There never seems to be an opportune time anymore.