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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fathers 4 Justice and their recent attacks on Mumsnet

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 17/03/2012 09:28

Some of you may have noticed that a group called Fathers 4 Justice has been saying some pretty unpleasant things about us over the last couple of weeks. In an 'advert' which appeared first on Facebook and then in yesterday's edition of the I, the group claims Mumsnet 'promotes gender hatred', and labels 'men and boys as rapists, paedophiles and wife beaters'. It calls on advertisers to suspend advertising on Mumsnet.

Most people, I'm quite sure, will see the adverts and the 'campaign' behind them for precisely what they are: a naked attempt to court publicity by a group of people who for whatever reason appear to have tired of climbing cranes in superhero outfits. (And, just coincidentally, in the run up to Mothers' Day). In fact it feels a bit like having a particularly irritating toddler repeatedly prodding you with a stick to get some attention.

By and large it seemed most sensible to ignore them, not least because we've had our hands quite full with stuff that actually matters, like Mumsnet's 'We believe you' campaign to dispel rape myths.

But since Fathers 4 Justice appear to have attracted some grown ups' attention, we thought we should tell you a bit about the background to this attack, the truth behind their allegations, and how they are trying to bully us and other organisations. Here are 10 things you should know.

  1. On March 3rd a Mumsnet user started a conversation about a poster campaign being touted on Mumsnet's Facebook wall by Fathers 4 Justice, and the fact that Fathers 4 Justice was bombarding a number of sites with this troubling image.
  1. A conversation then ensued on Mumsnet about Fathers 4 Justice and their tactics which some members of Fathers 4 Justice joined. Some Mumsnetters said some pretty harsh things.
  1. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy.
  1. On March 7th and March 8th MNHQ received a series of emails from the Campaign Director of Fathers 4 Justice containing threats of legal action and a threat to contact our advertisers. At the same time comments on the Fathers 4 Justice Facebook page describing Mumsnetters as 'barking mad harridans', 'weird sex obsessed paranoid perverts' and 'child abusing contact blockers' were left unmoderated. As were comments that described me variously as a 'dried up old hag', 'an evil woman' and having an 'IQ that would return a negative score'.
  1. On March 11th Fathers 4 Justice posted another attack ad this time accusing M&S of 'sponsoring hateful, bigoted and prejudiced comments about men and boys on Mumsnet' and demanding that M&S withdraw all advertising on Mumsnet or face a boycott. It accused the company of 'serving up gender hatred for Mother's Day'.
  1. Other organisations have experienced similar bullying tactics. In recent weeks Fathers 4 Justice have targeted the lone parents' support charity, Gingerbread, jamming up its telephone helplines. Senior NGO staff have told us they felt too intimidated to speak out against them.
  1. The suggestion that Mumsnet encourages gender hatred would be funny if it were not so offensive - and plain silly. The central aim of Mumsnet is to make parents' (mothers' and fathers') lives easier. There are many and varied opinions on the site and no one Mumsnet party line prevails, save for the view that we respect diverse opinion. We do not pre-moderate or vet comments made to our discussion boards of which there are around 30 000 every day. Men are and always have been extremely welcome on Mumsnet - we have a Dadsnet forum for Dads to talk directly with other men should they wish. We estimate that around 5-10% of our 2 million odd monthly users are men.

Of course you can always find plenty of Mumsnetters whinging about their male partners' shortcomings - more than there are whinging about their female partners' shortcomings - but generalisations are swiftly pounced on and we do not tolerate gender hatred, or any other kind of hatred for that matter (save maybe hatred of Fruitshoots). We encourage people to be civil and supportive and, in the main, most people are.

  1. Fathers 4 Justice campaigns for fathers to have access to their children following separation or divorce. Its founder, Matt O'Connor, says parents have 'fewer rights than a terrorist'. The organisation was temporarily disbanded in 2006 after it emerged that some of its members had plotted to kidnap Tony Blair's son Leo. Fathers 4 Justice boasts that it is 'the most controversial and high profile pressure group of modern times' but it has struggled to win public attention since abandoning its eye-catching tactic of scaling tall structures in superhero costumes. In recent weeks it has targeted Cafcass, the body responsible for protecting the rights of children in court proceedings, Gingerbread, the charity for single parents, (which it claimed supported 'the abuse of children') and Mumsnet. It has also, somewhat mysteriously, branded London 2012 'the fatherless games'.
  1. We believe that the issue of father's access to children is important and needs to be discussed. We understand that many Fathers 4 Justice campaigners are driven by intense personal anger over what they feel is injustice they have suffered in their own cases. But the recent actions the group have taken against Mumsnet and others constitute plain and simple bullying and intimidation and only harm its cause.
  1. Reading this, you may well already be spitting tacks by now. Please do remember that's precisely what Fathers 4 Justice want. If you post on the subject please keep it civil. We won't be bullied, but we don't want to be dragged into the mire either.

Many thanks.

OP posts:
ivykaty44 · 17/03/2012 14:26

branded London 2012 'the fatherless games'

that's weird

HelenMumsnet · 17/03/2012 14:28

Afternoon. Thanks for all the wonderful, supportive comments here Smile

Can we please just remind you all very nicely of Justine's point no 10:
"Reading this, you may well already be spitting tacks by now. Please do remember that's precisely what Fathers 4 Justice want. If you post on the subject please keep it civil. We won't be bullied, but we don't want to be dragged into the mire either."

Codandchops · 17/03/2012 14:28

How sad that they need to resort to stunts like these.

I am a member of MN.
I get on extremely well with my exH who is a brilliant Dad.
I don't hate men
I understand not all women are nice and considerate of their children when it comes to contact with a Dad.
I understand that some of the Dads belonging to F4J have been dealt a crap hand by a system that does not recognise them.
I find the vast majority of MNers to be the same - both male and female members because there are plenty of men here too.

Not sure what their problem with MN is to be honest.

runningforthebusinheels · 17/03/2012 14:29

Justine, great statement. I support MN and M&S all the way, I'm glad you won't be bullied by F4J laughable claims.

Sephora your post is as chilling as it is accurate:

'The reaction of F4J towards MumsNet and Gingerbread is identical to that of abusive men who don't want their wives/partners to have friends and support thereby isolating them and allowing the abuse to continue.

The root of this bullying- on a much larger scale- is due to F4J feeling angry angry and scared that women now have national support networks and no longer have to feel alone and helpless if they are in an abusive relationship."

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/03/2012 14:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiseryBusiness · 17/03/2012 14:35

There seems to be a running commentry on the threads on Mumsnet on the F4J FB page at the momemt.

But, however much I'd like to comment I will not.

LadySybilDeChocolate · 17/03/2012 14:36

Smile Stewie! Are you OK?

Grumpla · 17/03/2012 14:37

WHAT Stewie?!?! I'd be reporting that charmer to the police if I were you.

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/03/2012 14:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

runningforthebusinheels · 17/03/2012 14:50

And he thinks it's not a threat..... says it all really Confused

NoDontLickThat · 17/03/2012 14:58

Thank you for posting so much information justine, but I do have one question, do we hate ALL fruitshoots or are the flavoured water fruit shoots ok?

youarekidding · 17/03/2012 14:59

I have just had a look at F4J FB page.

Shock

Stewie You really are dignified - and that's mostly what is winding F4J up. Hope you get somewhere with the police.

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/03/2012 15:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadySybilDeChocolate · 17/03/2012 15:02

Have you seen how much crap is in the flavoured water fruit shoots? Shock You can make your own. Just chop up your desired fruit, place into some tap water and chill in the fridge over night. Yum! Strawberry is good, apple, oranges, lemons etc are all very tasty also.

LadySybilDeChocolate · 17/03/2012 15:04

I'm not sure if we're looking at the same page youarekidding. I can only find the one in which a lot of fathers are asking for advice about seeing their absent children.

Bossybritches22 · 17/03/2012 15:23

Completely hysterical and vitriolic on their FB page, doubt many of them have actually ever bothered to come on here and see what we're all about.

Hey-ho, off shopping now -will pop in to M& S & say hi to any protestors ;)

SephoraRosebud · 17/03/2012 15:30

I've been a member of MumsNet since 2006 and during that time, I've seen loads of support for dads on here. In fact, some such as UnQuietDad and BetaDad have become very popular due to their humourous and insightful posts. I have never seen any threads where the advice has been to deny a dad access to his DC unless DV has been involved but I have seen countless ones where posters have supported the dad's right to equal access and fair treatment.

Sure, sometimes there's a bit of 'man bashing' (usually on Friday nights at wine o'clock!) but it's certainly not vitriolic, gender bashing stuff. No worse than the ubiquitous mother in law and blonde jokes that have been around for decades.

If F4J really are the decent, loving fathers they claim they are, they should be campaigning for fathers' rights to part-time work so they can equally co-parent and be supporting a campaign to make sure that all men get fully involved with child care at the start of their DCs lives.

Unfortunately for their ex-wives/partners and DC I get the feeling that most F4J men only started thinking about spending adequate time as a parent once the relationship broke down.

NarkedPuffin · 17/03/2012 15:34

You've handled this with dignity. And style.

Tee2072 · 17/03/2012 15:36

Well said Justine.

I'd bet they are really mad at M&S because they don't do dinner for 4 for £15 on Father's Day.

Grin

[tongue in cheek]

bomsback · 17/03/2012 15:37

So M&S are men hating now are they?

Just a short time ago they were women hating for leasing their premises to a Hooters bar... wish they'd make their minds up Grin IMO the Hooters bar thing is far more outrageous.

I'm a bit confused about the whole campaign to be honest. There doesnt seem to be any grounds for their accusations... is there any man hating on MN??Maybe it's because i mainly hang out in steparents that I don't see it.

We hate rapists and bullies and abusers, but we love men.

SoupDragon · 17/03/2012 16:06

Having looked, for the first time, at their Facebook page, this just makes them look absolutely barking mad and foolish.

LadySybilDeChocolate · 17/03/2012 16:11

I'm not 'liking' them. Do I have to 'like' to be able to see their page? (vom!)

vvverbatim · 17/03/2012 16:19

I can't see what the problem is with this site, not sure why they have got themselves so wound up? I posted a few comments on the F4J FB page a while ago which didn't quite fit in with their agenda so now I can only view comments.

I think that they have made a significant contribution towards achieving a much better deal for us Dads, the family courts now favour and encourage shared parental responsibility which is better for the majority of children and their parents. I feel that maybe they would be better working with other groups rather than continuing to provoke and confront. I'm glad I came over here for a nosey anyway. :)

BeerTricksPott3r · 17/03/2012 16:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pozzled · 17/03/2012 16:20

I have a confession to make... I quite like fruitshoots. Do I have to leave now?

I think F4J have done themselves absolutely no favours here. I do believe that there's a point to be made about the role of fathers after parents separate. Both in terms of their right to be involved in their children's lives (except in abuse cases) and their responsibility to be involved. But I can't see how attacking a parental support network could possibly help them.
I think most MNers are very much in favour of having both parents involved as much as possible.

(Incidentally, do F4J have much to say about absent fathers who refuse to pay maintenance or ignore contact orders? I've not heard them speaking out against those fathers, but I'd be happy to find out that they have.)