Anti-misogyny classes - have schools lost trust in boys, what went wrong

[Renati]

Why do I feel like the default expectation from boys in schools is that they are a threat so that we need to have these classes in schools.

What went wrong?

We all know and can feel what boys need and want in life to be good brothers, fathers, husbands and people in the community and somehow...instead of reinforcing these things in schools they are going off on a tangent based on what? The manosphere? Seriously? How distracted can an entire government get.

Is the only way out of this backwards caveman style teaching is to homeschool? Boys in school are not given the space to express themselves without first being told the reason the feel the way they feel is...innately probably because they are a person who needs correcting.

This doesn't just affect men, if you provide a society where men grow up resentful of the conditions and expectations set around them, you will have men more resentful for women....and guess what...this does encourage boys to not the become the brothers, fathers and husbands they could be because this is only possible if society creates a safe space for boys to feel secure and validated for their feeling growing up.

100% Look at research about rape myths and how much they're believed. Sadly this is one of the reasons for low conviction rates in trials.

Growing up with a good community and hearing it at school won't do any harm. Boys are getting the same message twice, people all singing from the same hymn sheet.

However I have taught plenty of boys who,"grew up in a good commuity" and have heard them make rape jokes and make misogynistic comments. The boys know what they are saying is wrong, yet feel empowered to say it anyway. That's why education and challenge is important.

Yep @Happytaytos the stories my niece tells me of the boys in her school would make you furious. All these boys are children of doctors, lawyers etc. But behave like sexist Neanderthals. A lot of that is driven by what the cultural norms are within a school and the school should make attempts to influence that.

@Renati “However, we don't teach girls that if they wear certain clothing they are going to become a victim for example.”

This your quote or not? If so, ‘we don’t need to teach’ girls that they don’t need to wear certain clothing to avoid being a victim. Their clothings is making sod all difference to their chances of being a victim, as evidenced by the endless numbers of women and girls victimised wearing what I presume you would deem acceptable.

What was Sarah Everard wearing that was provoking Wayne Couzens? Was it the raincoat? The beanie? The trainers?

What was April Jones wearing that provoked Mark Bridger? Pyjamas? Or maybe it was the wellies?

Also - not all education is effective but still we try! I work in an FE college and can tell you that they don't all come out of their GCSE lessons totally switched on and enthused, but we still teach our young people that society expects them to be numerate. The more education on this the better as far as I'm concerned

But it's not claiming back. Misogeny has been live and well since a dawn of time. Many women have had to put up with horrendous attitudes from men forever. Two are murdered a week in the UK (including my Granny) by men. This is a pretty consistent figure for generations.

Society has been against women from time zero. The manosphere stuff is a pushback against some of the progress that women have made.

“In society women can be in their element without judgement”??? What society do you live in, because this is utter rubbish. Women are judged, all day, every day for their behaviour and choices. To pretend otherwise is nonsensical and frankly harmful.

@Renati you’ve mentioned letting boys ‘have their feelings’ and ‘be in their element’ several times. What feelings should we be protecting and permitting?

I’m genuinely asking because all I can think of in relation to misogyny is ‘I feel horny so it’s ok to grope a girl or make porn noises at her’ or ‘I feel angry so it’s ok to take it out verbally or physically on a woman’ and you can’t be meaning those feelings, surely?

I'm terrified you wrote that and I'm not even going to respond.

Oh @MyLuckyHelper I can't read Sarah Everard's name without welling up. What a fucking disaster from start to finish in terms of failing to protect women and allowing a culture of misogyny. Right down to how the vigil was policed. 😭

Imagine if one of Couzens colleagues had stood up and called him out to seniors? Shared his revolting whatsapps?

Know what? I posted on FB at the time about the appalling policing of that vigil and a (now ex) friend of mine (ex Met police) contacted me by DM. She told me "it will just be the usual agitators" at that event then admitted she knew Couzens and "he was always making disgusting jokes about women".

Fuck that attitude. If we're teaching kids that kind of thing is not acceptable that makes me very fucking happy.

Problem is it is uncomfortable isn't it? Much like jokes about racism are the thin end of the wedge which leads to a depersonalisation and eventually violence. Addressing misogyny is about addressing the culture where VAWG is effectively decriminalised because conviction rates are so poor.

It is uncomfortable because we don't want to think that's the society we live in. But we do. Rather than sticking our heads in the sand, let's do something about it?

But we genuinely don’t know what you are calling for that men don’t already have!
You talk about male energy, about being in their element without being judged.

What does that look like? That’s what the PP is asking.

Is it being allowed to make mother in law jokes? Or jokes about boobs? What?

I have read Steve Biddulph, and a few other authors / studies about boys. I listen to Richard Reeves, again illuminating.

One really interesting one was by a NZ woman (Celia Lashlie - He'll Be Ok), who'd worked in prisons / young offenders institutions for years, and then became a single to mum to a boy. She wanted to understand how these young men were going so far off the rails, in such great numbers. NZ has a really big problem with domestic, sexual and gang-related violence, the huge majority of it perpetuated by males. She went and spoke directly with hundreds of teenage boys and young men, learning what's going on in their crazy testosterone-addled heads, and who they actually listen to or take instruction from in those years (clue: it's not mum or female teachers).

What I picked up from this reading was just how completely different the world of boys is from that of girls. How they grow up, where their instincts take them, the hormonal and other internal drivers that are influencing them. I grew up with a sister, no brothers, and it was a total revelation to me. The biological reality of their physical nature, all that strength and muscle and testosterone. The point where the hormones really kick in, and they turn their back on 'mum' and gravitate towards their peers and other boys in the hierarchy. That's when they need strong, good, MALE role models to show them how to be good men. In caveman times, that's when the boys would be sent off to learn to hunt and fight.

And what do we do? Stick them in schools, staffed overhelmingly by females, make them sit still, and memorise and concentrate and be 'nice' and 'kind' all day. Being 'nice' is not how boys achieve status - and status matters more than anything at that stage. That's how they are made, that's how humans evolved, that drive is part of what pushed us forward and made us so successful as a species.

I agree with Steve Biddulph and Richard Reeves that the whole word of education - which kids are put into for years and years - has become overwhelmingly feminised. So I really don't see how yet more school classes, delivered by female teachers, in a conventional school setting, is going to make a blind bit of difference to the boys that need to hear this. They can learn to be respectful, kind, considerate men - but they need teachers and lessons that speak directly to them.

Is this happening? Can anyone share a news article? I googled but couldn’t find it.

My niece is secondary aged, year 8. Her confidence has been absolutely destroyed through boys including year 10s/11s making disgusting comments about what they’d like to do to her and friends. She was exceeding expectations and now struggling to due to the hostile environment in her niace outstanding state secondary. I actually think it’s more than a minority of boys.

It’s not new and it’s getting worse. Boys absolutely need educating on this from a young age…. And it would’ve been beneficial 100 years ago. And a 100 years before that. And so on….

I’m not taking the piss, I’m honestly asking for clarity because I don’t know what you’re referring to.

Assuming this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9qednjzwv1o

Still waiting for clarity on what boy energy means and how on earth we are stifling it in a world overwhelmingly geared towards men.

The manosphere stuff is a pushback against some of the progress that women have made

Absolutely this ^^ Some men and boys harbour a huge resentment against women. Sometimes it’s open, obvious and explicit, but other times it’s hidden and internal - a belief that women are inferior. That latter ‘hidden’ group is surprisingly large. My DS at the age of 9 told me that women couldn’t be builders, for example. I certainly didn’t teach him that! He’d picked up these ‘facts’ at school. It’s that kind of endemic assumption that women are less than men that drives misogyny even amongst the men who’d never rape or attack women. It’s an unspoken assumption and it’s been around for a very long time.

OP, you’re wrong - because you’re assuming the lessons will all be about ‘You’re boys so you’re evil and everything you do and think is evil’. The lessons won’t be like that. They’ll teach and model good behaviour, discuss inequality, allow boys to give their thoughts on subjects, and teach understanding and empathy. They’ll also counteract some undangerous but widespread assumptions based on the idea that women are inferior.

The lessons will counteract the idea that women and girls are bit part players in the lives of the real stars, men and boys; that women should prioritise men; that a woman who doesn’t do what a boy/man says is being purposely ‘disrespectful’; that when women say No it’s all part of some coy strategy or an attempt to just be annoying because, of course, any woman, inferior as she is, would be grateful for the attention of a boy or man, etc etc etc.

Girls too can learn how to spot misogyny - the kind of misogyny that’s so engrained in our society that we hardly notice, and how to protect themselves.

This is 2026, it’s disgusting that we’re still having to have these conversations. Yes, it’s not all men, but it’s not about that. It’s about the societal attitudes to women and girls - attitudes that have allowed twats like Tate to prosper.

So what's the answer then and where are all of the men stepping up to teach boys how to be good men?

If too much time being taught by women is so bad for boys why aren't more men stepping in to become teachers?

My teenage daughter said they covered this in school recently and it was all about respectful behaviour to others and violence prevention? I don't see the issue. I do also have a son, he's a lot younger but I don't think teaching him how to share a space physically with others and how to play and talk respectfully is an issue or restricting his energy...

Relatively speaking in comparison to other countries around the world the UK is incredibly none judgmental towards women. Famous for it.

Lol

Really?!

The other countries must have a really really low bar.

Perfect - then call it how to be respectful, call it violence prevention...labelling it anti-misogyny is a big issue and helps nobody.