Anti-misogyny classes - have schools lost trust in boys, what went wrong

[Renati]

Why do I feel like the default expectation from boys in schools is that they are a threat so that we need to have these classes in schools.

What went wrong?

We all know and can feel what boys need and want in life to be good brothers, fathers, husbands and people in the community and somehow...instead of reinforcing these things in schools they are going off on a tangent based on what? The manosphere? Seriously? How distracted can an entire government get.

Is the only way out of this backwards caveman style teaching is to homeschool? Boys in school are not given the space to express themselves without first being told the reason the feel the way they feel is...innately probably because they are a person who needs correcting.

This doesn't just affect men, if you provide a society where men grow up resentful of the conditions and expectations set around them, you will have men more resentful for women....and guess what...this does encourage boys to not the become the brothers, fathers and husbands they could be because this is only possible if society creates a safe space for boys to feel secure and validated for their feeling growing up.

I’m not sure boys get worse treatment than girls in schools. Male violence is seen on a scale that includes horseplay, whereas even the lowest level of female violence is often treated as very out of the ordinary.

If too much time being taught by women is so bad for boys why aren't more men stepping in to become teachers?

Low pay
Low respect (from society / parents / peers)
Low status

Some of the greatest gains that feminism has made has been in the teaching profession - but that has been at a cost to men choosing it as profession.

My DH is a teacher, secondary level, and bloody good at it. He has several male colleagues - and they are as varied as any group of people. There's no one 'type'. They got into teaching because they love their subjects, because they genuinely enjoy working with young people and because teaching is a great career if you want to travel / work abroad. But our school (not in the UK) does not generally have the above challenges; they are paid well, the parents / students are, by and large, very respectful and there's a minimum of behaviour issues. I'm not sure where status comes into it for them - I don't think any of them are particularly status-driven, but I think they are all quite proud of being teachers (even if it's in a 'someone's got to do it, it might as well be me' kind of way). None of them are 'macho'. There is definitely a bit of huddling together in a very female-heavy sector.

So in the UK what could be done? Well a complete overhaul of the education sector might help. Higher salaries = higher status, maybe. Huge increase in sports / extra-curriculars and extra pay for teachers who can offer these. Smaller classes, which lets teachers really teach in interesting and challenging ways (DH has a maximum class size of 18 - this means that even the most grumpy 15yr old boy gets some personal attention).

Richard Reeves proposed that boys should start school a year later than girls - gives them a chance to catch up on their organisational development, rather than stumbling along in the wake of the girls, who develop these skills much earlier.

None of this is going to happen in the UK, and tbh it can only succeed if it's demonstrated at home. When Celia Lashlie realised that she was going to be a single parent to a boy, she went out of her way to find other good male role models, decent hard-working, responsible men - to spend time with her son. Sports coaches, grandads / uncles, family friends, fathers of her sons friends, teachers, etc.

Teachers, usually PE teachers, should absolutely not be paid more for offering extra curricular activities. It is the trade off for having far lower marking load than say, an English teacher. It’s a nice thought, but realistically, we’re not short of PE teachers, we’re short of STEM teachers.

I would have thought that embedding it into everything (for everyone) would do more good than a one off lecture. I also think we are in need of critical thinking skills more than ever.

I was wondering about the same thing. I come from a country with mandatory military service for all males over 18 (and unfortunately, more than theoretical threat of actual war). In event of war, there will be a draft.

I genuinely like most men, but i find the ”softness” of op astonishing. I apologize if that’s not the right word. You really think your little boy will be traumatized by a few anti-misogyny classes? You want there to be more room for ”boy energy”? Try raising your sons, nephews and younger brothers with the real possibility of them ultimately having to survive a war if things go wrong constantly in the back of your mind.

By the way, My younger brother is 25, 6”2 a pilot in the Air force and also studying to become an engineer so he can continue to do ”something useful” when he is too old to fly. As a child, he was expected to do well in school, be polite and help around the house. My dad has told us to leave in case of war , but has made it clear that he will only be going to one direction, the front. Despite being too old to be drafted in his 70’s. This, in my opinion is the ultimate ”boy energy”. Is this what you want for your son? Also, I can assure you these men did not become the people they are by being treated like precious, fragile little princes.

Ah feminism ruined it for men and boys again! Darn it.

By having open conversations about these things then things are much more likely to change than if we bury heads in sand. Men and women both need to be aware but men are in a better position to change things and to challenge others.

I have had many a discussion with DS about Andrew Tate and similar and he is very much of the view his views are abhorrent

Your OP contains so many leaps and assumptions of what is being taught not to mention a complete lack of awareness of the scale of misogyny around - not only today but since the bloody dawn of time - that I can only assume your intentions are to goad.

Wtf is 'boy energy'?

If pp did miss your point it is because you are expressing yourself very poorly.

But picking up on this post specifically are you saying boys should be allowed to “express themselves” and “be in their element” by being agressive, bullying, violent, controlling of and abusive to women, because that’s what the anti misogyny classes are trying to fight. If you think those behaviours are wrong how can you possibly have a problem with conversations designed to discourage them and show young men another way? If not the you presumably subscribe to the “boys will be boys” crap, in which case you can get in the bin.

I didn't say (or believe) that it 'ruined' it - I said that there was a cost. Generally, we've decided as a society that it's worth the cost - to open up employment choices to women, especially in areas that were formerly dominated by men. There are costs to every policy choice - and this appears now to have been one of them. As we go forward, we can decide if the cost, and the consequences for society, are significant enough that we need to change things again.

When I was at school I’d say that about 40% of the boys were very misogynistic and made absolutely awful comments to girls, engaged in sexual assault by groping and were only nice to girls they fancied. Their mums no doubt thought they were angels. The truth is, while it might not be all men, it’s loads of them.

My dad gets really offended by this as well, that he is being seen as a danger and a threat, when he isn't.

I tell him to think of the pov of the e.g. woman walking alone in the dark - she doesn't know your son is a lovely, safe person - she might consider him a potential threat because all men could be dangerous. I don't think it is wrong for men/boys to realise this. I have boys also and will be teaching them this

I think of it like child safeguarding - I comply with this at school/nursery. I am not allowed in without signing/permission, can't take pics of unknown children etc. These rules are in place because unknown adults can be a danger to children. It isn't about me, and proving what a kind safe person I am - it is about keeping children safe

Yeah men shouldn't suffer the slightest inconvenience for women's safety should they.

What kind of parenting would result in a boys confidence being crushed by being told to consider women and girls as whole human beings?

What went wrong, numerous things. Unchecked social media , people like Andrew Tate spouting their vile messages, breakdown in discipline, particularly a schools almost complete inability to manage behaviour and that’s not having a go at teachers rather the way virtually no punishment can be handed out anymore without it infringing someone’s human rights and being subject to complaints from parents. I’m not saying things from my childhood such as the cane were necessarily a good thing, but there was much more of a deterrent to bad behaviour.Theres also a move away from teaching manners and what’s right and wrong, again it’s now considered old fashioned and even frowned upon to show respect, open doors for people etc but I truly can’t help thinking the breakdown of social norms is at least in part to blame for what is happening

This, my elder boys, now men. 26, 23 and 21 all di this. Because they are aware especially in evening, if its dark etc that women are rightfully nervous. They are aware of their own inherent privilege because they are men.

I have 5 boys and 1 girl and I was very aware that I wanted to raise them to understand sexism, inequality etc.

We talk, still do with the 3 at home and my elder 3 when they are home about all sort politics, education, systems, inherent bias etc and they have an awareness and understanding.

We are a ND family and very aware to social injustice and inequality.

But for me I am really aware of cultures boys are exposed to especially online, habits and attitudes that can be picked up and excuses that are made of boys being boys. Its really important we counter this. And so yes that means explaining to our sons that women feel intimidated or fearful of men at times and how thet can help.

I’ve just read the whole thread from start to finish and I can’t help thinking that the OP is one of he men of the manosphere, or a woman who has a massive case of the ‘not my Nigels’. The dissembling, the lack of knowledge or belief about what girls are putting up with in schools, the belief in separate ‘boy energy’ to be indulged, the casual misogyny in the posts all adds up.

I am reminded that, when your whole existence has been privileged, equality starts to feel like oppression.

I feel OP would benefit from joining their son in these classes.

Men need to be aware that some men intimidate women (and worse of course) and what they can do to make sure they don’t add to the problem even inadvertently.

Being aware of the feelings of others isn’t a bad thing!

Having now read all of OP's posts I think I've worked out that this elusive 'boy energy' is actually misogyny, that it's somehow innate and boys are therefore somehow being repressed by being taught not to be absolute dicks to females.

I think a lot of parents would! This is generational - how my in-laws treat my children is intensely gendered and helps no one.

Random anecdote - when we got my daughter a play kitchen she actually was super confused by it and we had a whole series of chats with her about how it was okay for her to play with it. Finally worked out she thought she shouldn’t play toy kitchens because in our house, my husband does 99% of the cooking (I hate cooking and he loves it) so in her head, cooking was for boys. That’s just a long way to say that this stuff is taught and experienced from birth at home, there’s nothing innate about ‘girls in the kitchen’ if you never see that.

What is really sad about this isn't that lessons are happening, (schools already do lessons on relationships, consent etc.)
Its that the pupils (male and female) know which boys need this type of lesson.
The teachers know which boys need this type of lesson.
But the boys that need this type of lesson will go home and be backed by both parents.
And the school will no doubt send these same boys on special trips and adventures as they have always done with poorly behaved pupils.

Yes, me too in the 1980s. There was a popular game called 'Rape' in my secondary school - if you can believe that. Large groups of boys would target a girl, and chase her with the aim of pulling her knickers down. Then they would kind of wander away, hands in pockets, not sure what to do next. They generally targeted the pretty girls, and it was considered a bit of an 'honour' to be picked, which is sick.

But I don't think the boys even saw the girls that they terrorised, not properly. Their whole attention was aimed at the other boys, working out where they were in the pack and whether the 'top dogs' had noticed them.

I have accompanied a couple of school trips in the last couple of years. Both had - despite being a good school overall - a really big problem with the behaviours of groups of boys en masse. None of it was overtly sexual or intimidating in nature, but wow it was hard work. I am a mum of two teenage boys, I'm not intimidate by boys and even had a reputation of being pretty strict / fierce in the playgroup days, but wow these kids really tested me in a big group.

The younger boys - 11/12 yrs old, were just oblivious to the adults of either sex, and were completely focused on getting the attention of the 'alpha' boys: the ones that were a bit more developed, more muscles, making smart arse comments. They idolised these boys - jostling and literally pushing to get in front of them, shouting their name to get their attention, fighting to sit beside them, to make them laugh by saying or doing outrageous things. A whole lot of stupid behaviour in teenage boys is done with the sole purpose of making their friends laugh and winning their approval.

The older ones 16/17yrs... much of the same but this time utterly uninterested in listening to myself or any of the other female leaders present, especially when telling them off. But when our tall, bearded, sporty, masculine leader spoke? They paid attention then. It's like they couldn't even hear our feeble little womanly voices, but they could hear his booming shouts no problem. They literally couldn't see some of us standing in a group at 5'2" - but they literally looked up to him at 6'4". And they wanted his approval in a way that just didn't apply to us - they wanted a manly handshake, a clap on the shoulder, a pretend punch on the arm. Again, whenever he was with us they were jostling for his attention. Unfortunately he was the only male on the trip, out of seven adults so he was spread pretty thin.

I would say that the majority of them get involved in this group behaviour.

Anf during all this, the girls are just left to get on with it - because they can be. Because they are sensible, reasonable and mature by comparison.

I only know two men who were taught to do this. One sexually assaulted me and the other was violent to his ex-wife. They were very proud about crossing the street though. I reckon they only remembered because assaulting women was often at the forefront of their mind.

I am with your sister

men should be taught to cross the road when walking behind a woman , especially at night , its a basic curtesy

lots of men do it as standard etiquette

i hate it when a man is walking close yo me at night and i have to keep turning around to check his speed and distance, basic self awareness training from teenage years should be taught to men to never walk behind a woman at night and cross over and be ahead in her eyeline so she can see you safely ahead away from her , even better if they walk off in another direction if possible

i don't think it will hurt your son to be taught this basic etiquette

I know your anecdote seems to you to be the opposite of what we’re talking about, but sadly it isn’t. You’re talking about children absorbing the idea from a very young age that certain activities are for one sex or the other, though here in the opposite direction from expectations.

What we need to be doing is de-sexing toys, interests, activities, work, expectations of each other, so that saying boys and girls can be interested in anything, do anything, achieve anything is actually true, and not just a prayer for change.