Anti-misogyny classes - have schools lost trust in boys, what went wrong

[Renati]

Why do I feel like the default expectation from boys in schools is that they are a threat so that we need to have these classes in schools.

What went wrong?

We all know and can feel what boys need and want in life to be good brothers, fathers, husbands and people in the community and somehow...instead of reinforcing these things in schools they are going off on a tangent based on what? The manosphere? Seriously? How distracted can an entire government get.

Is the only way out of this backwards caveman style teaching is to homeschool? Boys in school are not given the space to express themselves without first being told the reason the feel the way they feel is...innately probably because they are a person who needs correcting.

This doesn't just affect men, if you provide a society where men grow up resentful of the conditions and expectations set around them, you will have men more resentful for women....and guess what...this does encourage boys to not the become the brothers, fathers and husbands they could be because this is only possible if society creates a safe space for boys to feel secure and validated for their feeling growing up.

A question that often gets ignored with this but how will this prevent the atittudes of women being second class citizens from various cultures?

This is really interesting....

Teacher of 24 years: I’ve seen the change. In MHO, it is coming from home (think lack of support in many cases rather than out annd out radicalisation) and the media. Schools then inadvertently compound the issue by being a melting pot of misogyny/letting things slide. Parents don’t respect schools and, in many cases TBH, schools don’t always respect parents. Mutual respect is disappearing whilst the manosphere grows quickly.

I agree it is interesting. But it's also very difficult to fix. Especially when we have people in positions of power who aren't inclined to do anything to fix it. Who are almost lauded for their misogynistic attitudes. (Yes, I am thinking of people on the right wing of politics here like Johnson and Trump.)

But you have to start somewhere and the work in schools is part of wider societal change which is needed.

Personally I like this campaign. Not sure it ever has had the traction it should but for once it's about challenging men to act about male behaviour:

Home - You're Right, That's Wrong

While I'm not a teacher, I'd include this in anti misogyny lessons. Because it's not just about not recognising that as we all grew up in a misogynistic society, we need to challenge ourselves and our own beliefs but also challenging it in others and stepping up as a man, using your position of power to challenge the status quo. Because if "good" men do nothing, nothing will change.

That’s one of the first things I taught my son as a young teen. My husband was doing it long before we met (age 22). I have no words for women and mothers who think it’s ’demonising boys’ to make them aware of the reality of sexual threat that women and girls live with - to ‘not all men’ them.

It’s not all men. But it’s almost always men.

Why don’t you worry more about girls becoming ‘resentful’ towards boys and men considering the fact many if not most teen girls have experienced some sort of misogynist, if not male threat already? If boys get butthurt at hearing about the reality of girls’ lived experience (because of men) then too fucking had.

My niece was once going down an escalator in a city centre large shop. A guy reached out from the up escalator and touched her chest. She was 15 at the time.

No member of staff rushed over, to be fair to them, they probably didn't see. I felt so angry for her and asked if she told anyone. She didn't. But already at 15 she had come to the conclusion that it was "just one of those things" and that "nothing would happen".

So I 100% agree. There are men kicking off because they are finally being pushed to make change and not all men like it. Doesn't mean that it's bad change. You don't abandon attempts to reduce racism just because the KKK exist.

That’s negligent, I’m afraid. This sort of parenting is what creates and perpetuates misogyny. ‘They themselves’ won’t ever fear a woman walking behind them. They will never be at the same level of risk of sexual assault. They will be free in public spaces in ways women can only dream of. My two sons don’t feel emasculated or demonised because I tell them to be aware of women’s unique vulnerability in public spaces, especially when it’s dark and/ or isolated. Even the best of men can need the lived reality of women and girls (the decisions we make, consciously or subconsciously every day of our lived in order to reduce the likelihood of sexual assault by men) expressly pointed out to them, as they themselves will never have felt that and likely never will.

I wish ‘pick me’ mothering by ‘boy mums’ (ick) would wither away

I agree that an approach to "treat others like they would like to be treated" misses the point. Women are not the same as men because they are physically weaker on average than men. This means that they are more likely to scan for and perceive threats.

There was some famous research done on this which would be worth sharing with men and boys in your lives:

Study visually captures hard truth: Walking home at night is not the same for women - BYU News

You will hopefully be able to see the images when I post but what it shows is where men focus on and women focus on in the same pictures of night scenes. This isn't just verbalised responses but actual behaviour. Men focus on where they're going, what's visible. Women focus on areas they can't see. Where threat may come from. Darker areas to the periphery.

That's why treating women like you'd treat men doesn't work. It's not saying that all men are threats. It's saying that threatening men and non threatening men look the same, you cannot know who is a threat and who isn't so the safest thing to do as a woman is to assume all men are a threat in certain circumstances, like walking alone in the dark. And combined with that, women are more alert in these circumstances to potential threats. So someone who isn't a threat but is unconsciously following, matching step or close behind, may be perceived as a threat. And that threat itself is stomach churningly awful. So it's only being a decent person to be considerate of that even if it's not a threat most men would perceive.

Just because they treat people equally doesn’t mean they are not aware of how vulnerable women may feel in certain circumstances. They are very aware of this and will take steps to alleviate these fears where needed.

You're kind of going in circles now. Treating people equally is then not acting on the awareness of inequality. It's ignoring it. If you are alleviating fears then that is considering the lack of equity. Get the distinction?

I see what you’re saying, however it is possible to treat people equally and be aware of inequality for some and by adapting behaviour is not ignoring it.

It's great that you're now understanding what I'm saying. It's exactly that. Adapting behaviour to another who has different physical capabilities from you and has grown up in an atmosphere which is inherently more threatening is being considerate and treating others how they would like to be treated not treating everyone in ways I see important because I'm recognising their differences and being supportive of them to feel as safe as I do.

That’s the stance my sons take. I perhaps didn’t explain things too clearly in my previous comments.

It just feels sexist or something. Personally I don't get scared of men when I'm out walking. I've been threatened and attacked by women but not men. But I'm going to talk to my son about this tonight and get his perspective on it after having a lot of replies and reconsidering

I've just spoke to my son now. I asked him what he does if he's walking behind a woman at night as they might feel scared. He said he speeds up to overtake them ! I asked him to consider crossing the street and he said he will

@ThatFairy how does he think a lone female would feel if they heard someone speeding up behind them?

I know he's daft. I've told him off

Interesting that a number of posters said it’s just common sense not to walk behind a lone woman, they don’t need to be told. Obviously that is not the case!

Why “ask him to consider”? Why not just tell him it’s the right thing to do.

He's an adult and I have to treat him like one, I can't just tell him what to do but I will check in later and see if he's applied the insight

This is so obvious it shouldn’t even need pointing out. Porn was shameful and hard to access when we were growing up and we didn’t have anything like the current problem with misogyny. It won’t be the only factor but it is clearly a significant one.

I found out recently that Reddit has porn on it. I've let my son have it since he was 12. I'm disgusted that social media which children use is allowed to have it on there

I had no idea…that’s awful.

Anything that is also used by adults will have porn on it.

Nevermind that it was and still is a huge platform for incels and the manosphere.