Anti-misogyny classes - have schools lost trust in boys, what went wrong

[Renati]

Why do I feel like the default expectation from boys in schools is that they are a threat so that we need to have these classes in schools.

What went wrong?

We all know and can feel what boys need and want in life to be good brothers, fathers, husbands and people in the community and somehow...instead of reinforcing these things in schools they are going off on a tangent based on what? The manosphere? Seriously? How distracted can an entire government get.

Is the only way out of this backwards caveman style teaching is to homeschool? Boys in school are not given the space to express themselves without first being told the reason the feel the way they feel is...innately probably because they are a person who needs correcting.

This doesn't just affect men, if you provide a society where men grow up resentful of the conditions and expectations set around them, you will have men more resentful for women....and guess what...this does encourage boys to not the become the brothers, fathers and husbands they could be because this is only possible if society creates a safe space for boys to feel secure and validated for their feeling growing up.

I think that in a lot of schools, the boys are influenced by the sportiest lad in the year. If that kid is a bad egg, it influences the whole year group, and similarly the other way round. How schools deal with that one kid has a bigger impact than anything. Sadly, too often bad behaviour is condoned - he can’t have a detention tonight, because we’ve got the county finals. This message is absorbed.

PE departments have a lot to answer for.

It’s like anything though isn’t it - we have to have rules laws and punishments most of us don’t commit crime but a minority do so we all have to live by sometimes annoying laws.

Most parents are actually doing a good job with their sons Dd has many male friends and they are a credit to their parents. Sadly a minority are not parenting properly and our society has issues with freely available violent porn etc so the majority then have to attend these sessions to address this aimed at the problematic group.

Dd said as much having to sit through grim talks about sexual violence the majority decent boys and the girls eye roll as it’s not anything to do with them really but the awful boys need to be told because their parents haven’t done their job properly and they are too thick or plain nasty to figure out how to behave with girls for themselves.

If you have a son a good sign is if he at 16 plus he is genuine friends with strong and confident girls. Then he’s likely a goodie.

And it’s 100% not common sense to know to avoid following a lone female. Someone has to tell them.

Ok, I'm going to reply as a victim of rape at the hands of three different men.

I know it's not all men. We all know it's "not all men". But by talking about it, you are not going to demonise, you're not going to belittle, you are going to try to do something to address the absolutely abhorrent levels of violence against women and girls globally. And why would you not want to do that?

It doesn't matter if your son would or would not harm a girl, it's about creating a culture where the lower level misogynistic acts and comments are unacceptable. There is a great campaign by some police forces called "you're right, that's wrong" all about men standing up to their peers on misogyny.

As for walking behind a woman? At late, in a lonely area? Yes absolutely cross the road.

When "me too" happened, a close male friend of mine asked me questions about this. "If I'm walking in an area at night and there's a woman ahead of me, should I cross the road?" I so appreciated his question. Frankly he's the least threatening man you could ever meet but the fact he'd thought about it touched me. That's the kind of guy I'd like to bring up (and I have a son). A man who thinks about their impact on others. Who considers the feelings of others. Who sees it as "manly" to care.

"to drill into a boy from a young age that walking behind a girl is inappropriate is just nonsense"

It is nonsense and it's a nonsense you've made up OP.

I'm sorry to say but this comment is frankly disgusting.

"we don't teach girls that if they wear certain clothing they are going to become a victim for example."

In no way does what a woman wear threaten someone else. Do you see the differentiation there? Do you see how insulting that is for me, as a victim to read? It frankly makes me very depressed for your moral compass.

"This course does the complete opposite for boys and I'm sorry they will resent society and women for it in the long-term."

It does nothing of the sort. It is about setting minimum standards of behaviour. I do agree with you op that there is a vacuum in terms of male role models in some men's lives. But that doesn't mean that courses like this should not exist nor that they will have a bad impact, in fact, the opposite. Your views though are likely to reinforce the impact of the online "manosphere" type influencers.

In any case, I do talk about this with my teen son. His view on those kinds of online influencers is he sees them as chancers and a bit sad. Making money off of idiots. If you think in some way that's "weak" of him to think that, well I strongly disagree.

Stuff like this is sorely needed. May you never have to find out yourself why.

The nice boys have no idea how much stronger they are than the girls. It simply doesn’t occur to them. When they see ‘horseplay’, they don’t always realise the girls are totally powerless to resist it, physically.
Boys can be very casual about things that terrify women, because they don’t feel this same powerlessness very often.

You are talking nonsense. 'Claiming back safe spaces for boys', 'men and women alienating each other'.

Women and girls have a right to feel safe and not be harassed. That's pretty much all we are asking for.

Schools need to tackle the manosphete as clearly too many patents aren't bothering or aren't getting through.

Oh wow I’d somehow missed that gem from
@Renati 🤢

we don’t need to teach girls that because it doesn’t matter what they wear. Men rape girls that are babies in nappies right up to OAPs in their own homes, fully dressed in “normal” clothes. It’s not the clothes, it’s the man doing the rape causing the problem.

Perhaps some classes to educate you would be a good use of public money.

It is common sense in some households or every single man in the UK who hasn't had a lecture by a parent would be terrifying women on the street. This isn't happening because many boys are brought up to have common sense.

You are very wrong. Your sister is bang on right and I’ve told my sons to do exactly the same, as have many of my friends who have adult sons.

Ah... how naïve you sadly are.

May you never find out. Unfortunately bad behaviour is common. Sure it's not all men but it's a lot of men.

We don't need to teach girls what? I think you missed my point. I'm saying in society women can be in their element without judgement yet men are judged for being in theirs. You missed my point completely.

Teach boys that some men abuse their power over women. Why wouldn’t you?
Teach boys that some behaviours aren’t ’masculine and alpha male’, they are abusive. Why wouldn’t you?
Teach boys that women have good reason to be wary of men who can physically overpower them them. Why wouldn’t you?

It’s just as important for Girls to learn about misogyny and how it can present itself. These lessons will benefit all.

In an ideal world all children would be getting these “lessons” from their parents but as has become clear, SOME parents of the current teenage generation are not doing a great job at this. I think it’s very important for schools to have these conversations. Any boy or their parent who decides that this is a personal attack on them might want to address the roots of their hypersensitivity and insecurity.

I have a little boy and another on the way so I am very keen for this issue to get dealt with now so that my boys have smart male role models in the future.

And actually OP while I do think the on the ground trend is for boys to see these manosphere twats as losers there is a huge difference in individual school culture and it absolutely can be shaped. My school is a fairly rough one in terms of demographics and it had much casual racism sexism five years ago. Now it’s a much poorer school generally and a much less sexist and racist one. Actually our surveys in how students feel have incredible results for how safe they feel, how much they know they are cared about and how listened to they are. That conversation has shifted public behaviour and private behaviour. The much better on paper near by comp is awful on all those markers. Once one girl there’s comes to us we tend to get a cluster in that year group and they are all amazed at how much easier it is to be a girl in our school. It’s easier to have a disability or a difference of any sort - that’s culture and schools can absolutely influence these issues.

The things that opened up my eldest to the problem was the conversation of other boys. It didn’t take me beating him over the head with feminism. He is the very definition of a typical boy - big and sporty and what the twats would call an ‘alpha’ so he knows how and entry to impress each other. He raises another man’s child with so much love and care and enjoyment it’s a wonderful bitch slap to toxic masculinity and it’s principles. His younger brother cut one friend out after accusations of sexual assault - he believed the girl instantly and his friend’s justifications made it clear he had done it. It shifted the friend group entirely as quite a few cut the assaulter out while some others didn’t. My son chopped the whole group that didn’t on principle that they were condoning it. What a great world it would be if men addressed this sort of shit so decisively.

What ‘element’ are men trying to be in that we judge them for?

We judge them when they infringe on the rights of other people.

Women moderate their behaviour all the time to try and stay safe, even though in many cases it doesn't work and they're most likely to be made unsafe by a male partner. I think you're wildly missing the point.

This is completely distracting from the topic. If you want to go down that road, do it, but not all parents will because they learn from mirroring a parent, or being amongst safe good peers. They don't need lecturing if they grew up with a good community.

The boys aren’t a threat, misogyny is. It hurts everyone. Boys are being targeted by online misogyny so are being protected by education.

My point is they don't teach this in school. We don't have an "anti-instagram model" course.

Renati - they do, social media, body image etc is all explicitly covered in pshee and is statutory content.

Why is education now "lecturing"? Why have you decided it's suddenly ineffective because it's a topic you disagree with? Why do you think that they ARE growing up in a good community? Do all boys have parents whose behaviour they can mirror? No obviously not. I would see your comments as not being appropriate examples and likely to excuse and be tolerant of misogyny.

@Renati I'm a mum of 2 boys. We need to teach them this shit to protect them, not just girls. I'm all for it

There is a lot of education around online harms and protecting yourself. You seem to be in a hole yet continuing to dig.

In any case, I do talk about this with my teen son. His view on those kinds of online influencers is he sees them as chancers and a bit sad. Making money off of idiots. If you think in some way that's "weak" of him to think that, well I strongly disagree.

I really liked that interpretation: 'chancers and a bit sad'. Watching the Louis Theroux doc I thought the same. The way the guy kept holding up a doc on his phone with his 'bank balance' typed on it! It's like the young mens version of selling Forever Living or whatever. A sad, empty pyramid scheme. Laughing at it is I think the way forward.

Women are judged all the time!
Why have some schools changed their policies to stop girls wearing skirts??

"She was asking for it" is a real and pervasive thought pattern in women as well as men!!

Do you live in la la land? Thinking women are free to dress, behave and do what they want without fear or judgement?